As to Erica and Gerda

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Sergio Nova
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Post by Sergio Nova » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:55 pm

bhaal wrote: And Sergio, sorry for hijack you thread with this.
Excuse me, but I could not understand anything.
What do you mean?

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HumanRage
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Post by HumanRage » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:53 pm

Sergio wrote:
bhaal wrote: And Sergio, sorry for hijack you thread with this.
Excuse me, but I could not understand anything.
What do you mean?
He apologies for stealing your thread and make it go into another discussion
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Post by Vega2503 » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:33 am

Gally has to get to Mars before Erica and Gelda are gone into more detail...

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Batousai
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Post by Batousai » Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:34 am

honored members and followers of the religion known as BAA (joking :D ) consider the following scenario:

Alita links up with her former comrades of the Panzer Kunst, reestablish the former might of the art and goes to war against ladder...
You can die anytime, it is living that takes courage...

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Post by MrFaber » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:49 am

Sounds pretty unlikely, the panzer knust members on Mars were basically a bunch of terrorists, no wonder if the survivors are splitted in the three factions who are trying to size Mars (See the showing up of martian queen at the ladder meeting). It's not the style of Alita anymore. More likely, if there will ever be a sequence on Mars, it would be Alita helping to settle Mars' politics, but the martian plot seems to be one of the many dead ends that Kishiro left around in LO, to me, as the quick loss of Rosco's robot.

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Post by Sergio Nova » Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:23 pm

bhaal & HumanRage
No problem! The subject is still interesting.

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TankTreads
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Post by TankTreads » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:36 am

If there ever were a war between Earth and Mars, no doubt Trinidad would have to make the first move for Alita to even consider attempting to take on New Order and the Earth Orbitary Federation. Even then, I highly doubt she could bring the required forces to bear. Compared to the gigantic industry and war potential of Jupiter and Venus, Mars is a quiet backwater. You just can't get the necessary war materiel.

There's a catch here... if you destroy Ketheres - say, by planting a bomb from within the structure - not only would you wipe out everyone living there, you would also endanger the people living far below. The orbital ring could lose axial stability and impact the surface with severe consequences.

If you don't completely annihilate Ketheres and instead try to take and hold it by force - perhaps by boarding it with an exceptionally-skilled assault team - you'll be swamped by New Order's superior firepower and sizable fleets while trying to hold the place down. If I were a New Order ship captain, I wouldn't hesitate to fire low-intensity secondary weapons right through Ketheres' decks to wipe out some marauding kunstlers if I had a team nearby that could precisely confirm their location. Sure, I may get court-martialed for it, but at least they're dead, right?

Both of those run counter to Alita's current agenda of establishing the sovereignty of Earth's surface. Besides, a lot of innocent people would die in either case, and I don't think the Alita we know would stand for that.

It's not wise to attack under these circumstances. Instead, why not encourage a full-scale industrial buildup and WMD program on Mars so they can wrangle concessions out of the other governments in Sol via blackmail? Sure, it might put them at odds with Jupiter, but those are better odds than trying to go to war against Ladder with a ragtag bunch of cyborg martial artists/assassins/mercs/supercommandos/etc. Of course, knowing Alita, she'd probably have an entirely negative opinion on the feasibility and morality of Mars starving their citizens of a variety of goods and services just so they have enough dough left over to make weapons of war. This is just one of those times when you have to lay low and sort everything out as quietly as possible.

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Post by Chrome » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:29 am

In other words, it is very likely that Alita will revive the Panzer Kunst colony on Mars - Officially it doens't exist, but it is secretly affiliated with the Mars Kingdom Parliament.

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Post by MrFaber » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:57 am

They would never blow up Jeru, that would completely destroy the whole orbital lift and scrapyard would be crushed as well by the fall of salem. And not mentioning that, on Jeru, the Onion Frame, Leviata 1 and so on live a huge lot of people that they would define "innocent". The only way tu put down Ladder is throught a political scandal, as the one Alita just menaced to keep the ZOT running. But then there would probably be a second Terraforming War, being Ladder the fulcrum of balance among solar sistems forces.

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Post by Sergio Nova » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:27 pm

Guys, I admit this debate is interesting, but I daresay that the theme here has been corrupted.

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Post by TankTreads » Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:40 pm

MrFaber wrote:They would never blow up Jeru, that would completely destroy the whole orbital lift and scrapyard would be crushed as well by the fall of salem. And not mentioning that, on Jeru, the Onion Frame, Leviata 1 and so on live a huge lot of people that they would define "innocent".
No offense, but that is a repetition of what I already said. Destroying Jeru is out of the question, but capturing it instead is suicidal without the proper arms and equipment. Namely, warships. Both of those are essential to "Waging war against Ladder", as Batousai suggested. Neither of those are an option unless you turn Mars into a giant war factory overnight without anyone noticing, a gigantic feat in itself. It's just that simple.
MrFaber wrote:The only way tu put down Ladder is throught a political scandal, as the one Alita just menaced to keep the ZOT running. But then there would probably be a second Terraforming War, being Ladder the fulcrum of balance among solar sistems forces.
A political scandal involving Mbadi and some piddling ZOT tournament would hardly put Ladder on thin ice. Like the UN, they're too big and too well-established for one man's actions to topple them. It wouldn't be enough to incite war, either... the governments of Sol are only concerned with truly large-scale fiascoes involving weapons of mass destruction/natural resources/asteroid belt squatters making babies/terrorist attacks and organized subversive elements/et cetera. Assassination and corruption schemes involving mere peasantry aren't enough to merit more than a slap on the wrist.

This hearkens back to Kofi Annan's son and the whole Oil-for-Food thing, and this has just about the same impact on Sol politics as that incident had on our world politics. Which is to say, next to none. The figureheads squirmed around and shouted big words left and right, but in the end, the citizenry, in their nigh-infinite complacence, just couldn't bring themselves to care. The general public on Jeru are more than complacent. They're kept in line with nanomachine networks in their brains.

If Sechs were to bring attention to the attempted murder of Ping Wu, Mbadi and Super Nova could just as soon allege that Alita tried to break into a restricted area. Everybody's dirt on everyone else cancels each other out, and they know it. Sure, the media would be all over it, but they'd forget about it soon enough, and the public would forget even sooner.

Sol's a much bigger place than Earth alone. There's a certain point when human civilization grows so large that what was formerly a serious international incident doesn't even come close to reaching the same levels of infamy because its area of influence is just not far-reaching enough to affect a significant fraction of the human population. This is that point.

He'd probably just hide the evidence, call scapegoat and sit it out. Just like Kofi Annan. Since nobody would take the Space Angels' word for it and since the general public on Jeru/Ketheres are all on Unanimous, the Venus team is the only real thorn in his side right now. They were witness to everything he said, which gave them the opportunity to engage in the proverbial arm-twisting if he were to let his tongue slip. No doubt the other governments in the Solar System have a means of surveilling the tournament grounds, too. He had to play it safe.

Letting the ZOT tourney continue is just a convenient way to keep the eyes of the Space Angels and their opponents off of him and his lackeys while he goes about trying to clean up the mess he made. By the end of the tournament - provided Mbadi's no fool and he plays his cards right - there won't be a scandal for Alita and the gang to exploit. They just missed their chance.

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Post by MrFaber » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:01 pm

Changing subject just for a moment... In one casual scheme lost deep in the early pages of LO, they show a scheme of the whole orbital lift, which is a ring around the planet, with actually TWO orbital lifts, to keep the balance, so, on the other side of earth there is another Starcity, another Salem, and another Jeru. I wonder if we will ever know anything about them or just Kishiro will forget to have ever dranw that scheme. :)

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Post by TankTreads » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:21 pm

MrFaber wrote:Changing subject just for a moment... In one casual scheme lost deep in the early pages of LO, they show a scheme of the whole orbital lift, which is a ring around the planet, with actually TWO orbital lifts, to keep the balance, so, on the other side of earth there is another Starcity, another Salem, and another Jeru. I wonder if we will ever know anything about them or just Kishiro will forget to have ever dranw that scheme. :)
Yeah, Space City Binhar and its accompanying gateway city Nezher. If you pierce Earth axially along Kansas city to find the location of Nezher, you soon discover that Nezher is over the middle of the Indian Ocean, about two thousand miles south of Sri Lanka. At about five hundred miles distant, the tiny Saint-Paul and Amsterdam islands are the closest landmasses.

I wonder if the surface city is a walled-off floating island fortress with a sustained population or a sparsely-manned pumping station?

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Post by spacey » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:25 pm

Or Koshiro forgot to look on the globe ;)

But even when it is over water, the flying cities could be important later.

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Post by MrFaber » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:14 pm

I must admit ignorance, but i don't know if the ark on wich Vilma and Victor fought is a really existing building, so i don't know how to identify Starcity ad Kansas City, but i think that both the lifts must be on the equator line, to turn with earth revolution, or on poles, to align with the axis, but the first hypotesis sounds better, the rings stays up balancing gravity and (i don't know the english word, the force you produce spinning), so it has tu spin with the planet.

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Post by TankTreads » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:04 am

MrFaber wrote:I must admit ignorance, but i don't know if the ark on wich Vilma and Victor fought is a really existing building, so i don't know how to identify Starcity ad Kansas City.
The Jefferson National Expansion Memorial in St. Louis, Missouri. About 240 miles East of Kansas. Was Vilma's body transported there, or was Star City really built on St. Louis rather than Kansas? The mystery deepens.
MrFaber wrote:but i think that both the lifts must be on the equator line, to turn with earth revolution, or on poles, to align with the axis, but the first hypotesis sounds better, the rings stays up balancing gravity and (i don't know the english word, the force you produce spinning), so it has tu spin with the planet.
Both of those cities are about 38-39 degrees north of the equator. Both of them are on the same axis as the Indian Ocean.

Oh, and Spacey... it makes perfect sense for Nezher to be located above the ocean. The footnote describes it as being an oxygen and seawater pumping station to supply O2 and H2O to Binhar where it is then shipped off to the colonies.

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Post by Batousai » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:59 am

and even if that weren't the case, alot of time has passed since the world we know of was fucked up by the meteor and the winter... it's possible that a vulcanic island sprung up from nowhere... or something similar...
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Post by Kiddy » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:43 pm

I read somewhere that the reason for him quitting the story and then redrawing the end, was because he had to quit since the editor (I'm not sure if that was the person) said that the story is unpopular. Additional if I remeber clearly he always wanted to give the story another ending.

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Sergio Nova
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Post by Sergio Nova » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:32 pm

This conversation has taught me a lot on geography.
Great!!

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Sergio Nova
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Post by Sergio Nova » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:12 pm

Kishiro made an interesting word play that disappeared in the English translation: Jeu+Salem = Jesusalem.

Ketheres + Tiphares = nothing at all.
Some translator should be executed.

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Post by MrFaber » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:02 am

Are u sure? I was pretty sure that the Jeru - Salem reference was introducted in the english version and the original names where the others. Anyway here in italy it's Jeru - Salem, and i like it that way. Yet i would have prefered that they didn't swap the names Gally - Alita from uroboros dream. Gally would have done fine.

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Post by ederly » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:09 am

i don't remenber where it was but i have seen that jeru and zalem were a reference to the new jerusalem from the bible. besides i don't understand the traduction kheteres and tiphares. does that means something? why this traduction?

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Post by Kamui04 » Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:30 am

Original Japanese names:
Gally - Jeru - Salem

English names by Viz:
Alita - Ketheres - Tiphares

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Post by MrFaber » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:41 pm

English names comes from the american edition, and they have a weird idea of what's politically correct, maybe the considered a biblic/jewish reference was inappropiatet.

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Post by Sergio Nova » Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:37 pm

I believe that translators have no right to consider anything (and I do know what I mean, as I myself am a Portuguese-English translator).It is simply a lack of respect (to say the least) to interfere in someone else's work.
Last edited by Sergio Nova on Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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