GLO's artwork and changes from HFV. . .

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Gallygun
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GLO's artwork and changes from HFV. . .

Post by Gallygun » Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:00 pm

Remember how in the original Gunnm series (Hyper Future VIsion) how there was nothing missing visually? The backgrounds were always full of gritty details, the characters were all drawn well with high scores for individuality, and there was so much inspiration from real life in the drawings. You could tell that Kishiro had really studied the subject he wanted to draw. And the thoughts and feelings of the characters were so clearly portrayed, the action scenes were amazing, Kishiro actually drew his own speed lines (as opposed to having a computer do it), and the art was inspired, intense, and wonderful.

But in GLO, things are totally different. Yes, I know a ton of people will disagree with me, but I think the artwork is passionless. The character's faces, especially Alita's, are stiff and their expressions feel forced a lot of the time. The backgrounds are so sterile; they don't have much interesting detail or individuality, they look like Kishiro added some perspective lines and a little detail, and that's it. I really miss the detailed, individualized backgrounds. A lot of the backgrounds are actually just white.

The characters seem to be almost the entire focus of the artwork. Which is very typical for any other mangaka, but not of the original Gunnm. Now the characters, though, seem to be Kishiro's only focus visually. I really hate Alita's outfits from GLO 4 and up. They don't look like Alita's essence at all. Remember the knee-high's, knee pads and body suits? When did Alita suddenly start wearing thigh high's?! It makes her so much less cool. She looks like a typical anime girl now, especially with the tail and now that her boobs are getting bigger by the panel.

WHich brings me to the passion of the artwork. Everything looks like concept art, which is not a good thing. There are very few parts of GLO where the action, emotion, and facial expression all match up. Everything in the characters expressions seems forced. The artwork is boring. I thought this from the first day I bought BAALO 1. It was so boring compared to the original series visually, I didn't even read it for a week!

And the gestures of the characters are just not there in GLO, whereas in HFV, they were clearly there, and clearly studied from actual people before put on a page.

Remember the Motorball backgorunds? The Scrapyard? All the things that made GHFV a universe, not just a character story? Well, now it's just that, a story about the characters, nothing bigger.

Which brings me to my next point, the story of GLO.

The ZOTT was NEVER supposed to be a part of Gunnm. You know how I know that? Because Desty Nova is almost non-existent in it. In the original series, Nova was in it from vol. 2, with the revelation that he created Makaku. Then there's Jagushan, and Zapan, then the hunt for Nova in the Tuned arc. Now with the ZOTT, the story is so thinly stretched you can barely remember what the underlying themes were! Every novel in HFV had a beginning, middle, and climax. GLO is not so well written. Vol. 12 is a prime example of this. You have this awesome return of Alita, then it's the Karate crap to finish the volume?! It was terrible. And the pacing of a volume to be more story-focused, then an irrelevant volume to be action focused (IE vols. 4, 11, 13) is just a terrible way to pace a manga. Each volume should be able to stand on it's own feet with story and action.

The ideologies of the story are still there in GLO, but theya re not believable anymore! In HFV, the characters had a relatable reason for what they did, how they thought, and their motives. Now the reason's are "I want a Karate planet!", and the like! Who cares! When Alita found out she had a brain chip in GLO 10, I wasn't even moved. There was no way for me to relate to it, which Kishiro used to make possible in HFV.

And then there is the fact that Kishiro is forcing characters nobody really likes into the manga. Like Toji. There's nothing really wrong with him, but he is just so boring. And he's Alita's main foe?! The enemies in HFV used to be hatable yet understandable. Toji is neither. He's all ideology, no substance. I actually like Zazie, Sechs, and Zekka, but that's another issue; THEY ARE MORE INTERESTING THAN ALITA!!! It has taken about 100 CHAPTERS to make Alita interesting again! 100! That's terrible!!!

Sechs was never supposed to be a part of GLO. I know that because of what Kaos used to say. "Don't look away, for the image you see in the mirror, that image is you". That quote came up during the first fight between Alita and a copy. It matches the Nietzche idea, "Gaze into the abyss, and the abyss will gaze back into you". The AR series was Alita's abyss, her dark side. And now Elf, Zwolf, and Sechs are on a team with her? Merely rivals?

It's really sad that the ZOTT ever existed. Because it robbed Gunnm of everything it once was. It's like the longest filler in a manga of all time. Frankly, I would have preferred that Gunnm finished back in the 90's, when it still was focused and was interesting.

Thoughts?
I <3 Zekka
I<3 Sechs
I <3 Alita

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Re: GLO's artwork and changes from HFV. . .

Post by valcat » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:53 am

I really have to agree. Even his interim work, Aqua Knight had more of a organic look.

GHFV had a totally different feel and while I still appreciate LO, it doesn't grip me as much. I speculate the differences are how the artist sees the world at different times of his life. GHFV had a great deal more gore and certain parts were really shocking to me at the time, which was a draw in. In a way, I see the new transition as a result of the story's location as well. The scrapyard was dirty, full of blood and disease, while space is more clean and sterile. Also, during the end of GHFV I had read that the artist became ill and finished the story under some duress. I wonder if that impacted the story besides him ending it early.

Some things I don't really care for in LO is how cocky Alita got after she got her "new form". It's kind of feels like she stopped being herself after finding out her brain is a chip. I wonder now if the real brain Alita will ever reappear. All we know is Super Nova has her brain, so maybe we will see the old Alita again eventually. I can hope. :p

In reference to the current storyline being a filler: What the heck happened to getting Lou's brain back? Is it still lieing on the floor some place in the "F box"? haha In the original story, story lines weren't left without some explanation. Of everything, that is what I miss in LO.

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Re: GLO's artwork and changes from HFV. . .

Post by Sergio Nova » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:44 pm

Well, I agree something is missing in the last volumes, but I would never say the entire GLO is weakened.

GLO01 has a very good narrative, and the introduction of Erica and especially Gerda is unrivaled, to say the least.

GLO03 has the introduction of characters like Aga Mbadi and Ping Wu, and also the structure of Ladder.

GLO04 brings a terrifying but very well elaborated character (and, unfortunately, as history has shown, extremely realistic): Colonel Paine.

GLO05 introduces Caerula Sanguis (where is she, by the way?).

GLO07 is the richest volume in the entire collection, and Yoko's history is fabulous, I daresay. Characters like Cannibal Spring Legs Jack and Whophon are really inspired; Sechs performance is unique; and we start to observe that Aga Mbadi is something more than he seems to be.

GLO08+09 are actually a side story, but important to situate the world when and where the story takes place.


After GLO10, I agree Kishiro's inspiration is sleeping.
As to the ZOTT, you are right: it has been an interminable pain in the ass.

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Re: GLO's artwork and changes from HFV. . .

Post by kvhokuto » Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:41 pm

I too have a problem with the artwork in LO. Gally just doesn't look like gally anymore, all of the girls seem to have the same default face, if they all had the same hair you wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

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Re: GLO's artwork and changes from HFV. . .

Post by crazyankan » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:40 am

Like most of the readers here, I started to read BAA.
I fell directly in love with the artwork, and finding the hidden messages, looking at the small details in the scrapyard etc.

But I must say that the artwork in BAALO ain't bad, it's not looking so good because we are used to the fantastic original artwork. And this looks like a completely manga.
BAALO takes place in space, everything is clean there and has a planned structure, but in scrapyard, everything was more chaotic.

I find three reasons that we don't like the artwork.
1: Looks more like a shounen manga nowdays.
2: Lack of human emotions on the characters.
3: Sterile environment.
+ BAA had a better story and more interesting characters.
Image

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Re: GLO's artwork and changes from HFV. . .

Post by Cailon » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:56 pm

I agree, too. You guys fathomed it quite well, so I don't need to add up to it.

I think YK did quite some things deliberately, though, like the cocky and emotionless Alita, like the sterile surrounding. Some day we will get to Mars, and there it'll all change back, hopefully. Alita will get back her brain and her emotions (or maybe a new Alita is created with no ZOTT-memories...) and Mars' rough surroundings will be more of a reminiscence to the Scrapyard.
However, in old BAA Kishiro would have done all of this this with great mastery in, like, 2-3 volumes, stripping the story of Alita finding her human self off of all meaningless side-stories (like almost all of ZOTT, I again agree on this).

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Re: GLO's artwork and changes from HFV. . .

Post by Cailon » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:05 am

Another thing: How old were you, when you first read BAA and how old are you now? Things experienced in childhood and youth do always have a much greater effect on you than things experienced later on. That's why everyone keeps saying that things were better back in the days. ;)

Also, many things have to do with changing times and technology. Drawing speed-lines by yourself nowadays would simply be behind the times - and I honestly think that even back then he had assistants doing those minor things. Plus, one of GLO's features is a state-of-the-art clean, technical and flawless artstyle, so he just has to do it that way.
I admit though that old BAA had more soul, regarding little details here and there, hints on movies and music, breathtaking perspectives and almost no lame characters like Toji ;)

Regarding the art though, looking at his recent drawings personally I think he's aiming for something new lately. He uses more scribble-like, crayon-like effects (see Sechs' power up or the last two UJ-covers). So all my humble hope is that GLO has already overcome it's valley and is already within reorientation phase. Kishiro wouldn't be a real manga artist if he didn't use the hiatus on practicing this more; so I hope after the hiatus the style of artwork and storywork will change - not abruptly but to an unexpectedly fast degree.

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Re: GLO's artwork and changes from HFV. . .

Post by hepar » Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:35 pm

kvhokuto wrote:I too have a problem with the artwork in LO. Gally just doesn't look like gally anymore, all of the girls seem to have the same default face, if they all had the same hair you wouldn't be able to tell them apart.
Gally is not Gally anymore.

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Re: GLO's artwork and changes from HFV. . .

Post by Doctrine » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:44 pm

I hope things like these don't change so much under Kodansha's edition
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Re: GLO's artwork and changes from HFV. . .

Post by gilsand » Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:06 pm

Hopefully he will get to use the type of hardware he wants, instead of being told he must use a Mac.
I never did like Mac, but just cuz EVERYTHING is proprietary, and are a real bitch to get UNIX to work.

BTW, who thinks that Frau-X is
Spoiler:
Erica?
:twisted:
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill.
To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.
Sun Tzu

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othergrunty
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Re: GLO's artwork and changes from HFV. . .

Post by othergrunty » Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:41 pm

True but this is something that happens to almost all long going Manga series, especialy when the creators try keeping the shedule.

Look at the first chapters of Naruto and they are full of many minor details (you can even spot a M1 Carbin rifle underneath a counter desk in the wave country arc).

As sad as it is, this happens a lot for several reasons. Sometimes the artist finds out that he can keep the shedule better by using computers as help (often goes in hands with getting more money), which in Yukito's case could have happend thanks to finaly getting access to better graphic programms after re-starting the series. In other cases the artist get's a team of lesser artist who copy his style to finish pages, while can concentrate on writing the story.

Though the later is something some people wish could happen in western comics to keep a certain artist in a title (art shifts have sometimes ruined entire series for many fans).

Personaly i hope maybe Yukito can manage to get a mix between his original fine detail, compressed story style and the less detailed, expanded story style of LO, when he continues.

Though i would still like the following Mars arc to be fleshed out enough.
Maybe by having Gally, Sechs and Zazie each have their personal directions.

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Re: GLO's artwork and changes from HFV. . .

Post by Sergio Nova » Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:42 am

gilsand wrote:
Hopefully he will get to use the type of hardware he wants, instead of being told he must use a Mac.
I never did like Mac, but just cuz EVERYTHING is proprietary, and are a real bitch to get UNIX to work.

BTW, who thinks that Frau-X is
Spoiler:
Erica?
:twisted:
Of course she's that Künstler. I affirm that categorically.

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litchi master
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Re: GLO's artwork and changes from HFV. . .

Post by litchi master » Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:07 am

Well as for myself I miss Alita's old nose. I may sound ridiculous but I personally find that the nose is very important in a face it will determine the difference between beauty and ugliness. Didn't Cyrano tell" Here comes this nose whose harmony in his master's features has destroyed, here it blushes! the traitor! (translation my own) And in Glo, I find that Alita's nose is not marked enough and that it deprives her a bit of her cuteness as well as some what of her humanity somewhat. She looks more grown up but also less human in a way, first I thought that it was Kishiro's new style, but when I looked at Elf and Zwolf i noticed that they actually had nosesand looked more like the like the old Alita than the present Alita does so I thought that it was deliberate. But why? With the time I think that it may have been a clue that Alita had lost her brain (but maybe I am going a bit too far)

For the rest I find the drawing is too clean, but Ithink that the drawing mimicks the environment it represents, the world on Ketheres is so clean and smooth and flawless , were the drawing different it wouldn't fit. I think it has to be all the more clean that it represents a world of hypocrisy and the most unwholesome society ever.

For the Zott I do not agree, it was not some thing that was added but was included from the very beginning. didn't you read the script of Gunnm Martian memories? It's already in there but with Glo it has swollen out of proportion, it has become the stage where all the different ideologies in the Universe fight and are crushed by the two super powers. Though it has dramatically overgrown its model the zott has enabled us to get to know the different ideologies in the world of GLO the same way the player in Gunnm Martian memories does when he visits the different ambassies. So the Zott has its usefulness and when its over we will be amazed by how much knowledge it has brought to us. But truly it has spread too much and I like everyone else here can't wait for it to be over so that we can get to Mars.

And concerning Frau-X I totally agree with you two guys.
Et le coureur à bout de force ... fut accuelli par une tempête de tollés!!!

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Re: GLO's artwork and changes from HFV. . .

Post by Umbriel » Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:22 pm

I'm afraid my English is too poor to express my opinion, but I agree mostly with Gallygun. In BBA, the fighting was a part of history, the road markings. Now, GLO, the story is just an excuse to recount battles with more and more powerful guys. GLO has lost much of the soul of the classical stage. But not all. Sometimes you can see remains of the classic series.
Zott never have existed, or at least, have never exceeded the length of a pair of volumes. But I think everything is due to a single problem, from which everything derives. BAA was published in a magazine for adult audiences as I recall, but GLO has been in Ultra Jump (until now), a shonen magazine, and probably under the influence of the editor, taking some time Kishiro lack of ideas, history has been infected by the current shonen style. The first two volumes are still very much in the line of the classic series (except that perhaps are a bit slower, the same story in the classical stage would surely have been only a volume), but it was from volume 3, when the series began "degrade" in a shonen, but still it would be a few volumes before falling completely.
I have the hope that, with the change in editorial, also see a resurgence of the style of the classic series, and of course a quick release once Zott tournament. :D

Original text in spanish.
Me temo que mi inglés es demasiado malo para expresar mi opinión, pero coincido en su mayoría con Gallygun. En BBA, los combates eran una parte más de la historia, las marcas del camino. Ahora, en GLO, la historia es solo una excusa para relatar combates con seres más y más poderosos. GLO ha perdido gran parte del alma de la etapa clásica. Pero no toda. En ocasiones se pueden ver restos de la serie clásica.
Zott nunca debió existir, o en todo caso, nunca haber superado la longitud de un par de tomos. Pero creo que todo se debe a un único problema, del que deriva todo. BAA fue publicada en una revista para público adulto según recuerdo, pero GLO lo ha sido en Ultra Jump -hasta ahora-, una revista shonen, y seguramente por influencia del editor, aprovechando algún momento de falta de ideas de Kishiro, la historia se ha visto contagiada por el estilo de shonen actual. Los dos primeros tomos aun siguen muy en la linea de la serie clásica -salvo porque quizás son algo lentos, la misma historia en la etapa clásica seguramente hubiese ocupado solo un tomo-, pero fue a partir del tomo 3, cuando la serie comenzó a "degradarse" en un shonen, aunque aun le quedaría unos pocos tomos antes de caer completamente.
Yo tengo la esperanza de que, con el cambio de editorial, veamos también un resurgimiento del estilo de la serie clásica, y desde luego un cierre rápido del torneo Zott de una vez. :D

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