Alita: Battle Angel Movie - Spoiler Thread

[jjaquinta]

Is there anybody among us that doesn't like Nova?

Hand goes up. I always thought he was a bit of a contrived antagonist. The only empathy I ever felt for him was that really powerful scene where he takes off his glasses. I was a little disappointed in the movie where they play that card right away.

But other than that, I thought his role in the movie as a contrived antagonist was faithful to his role in the manga.

[kamugin]

Hand goes up. I always thought he was a bit of a contrived antagonist. The only empathy I ever felt for him was that really powerful scene where he takes off his glasses. I was a little disappointed in the movie where they play that card right away.

But other than that, I thought his role in the movie as a contrived antagonist was faithful to his role in the manga.

Did we watch the same movie? Well, I didn't mean "to like him" in the same way you like Alita or Ido, but to like him due to the realization that he is a complex character that isn't plain evil or does evil just for the sake of it. Nova is an agent of chaos, he is responsible for making the world move thanks to his interference. This is the way I see him. Because of this role, he helps Alita a few times.

The scene where he takes off his glasses was indeed very powerful and touching, I regret that Kishiro never showed us again that side of him.
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I don't know if this little making off was posted here before. It is interesting to see in what extent Rosa Salazar's acting went into the CG character. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS7ZrZUN6YQ

[Cahir]

Memory of that scene was deleted, if I recall correctly, as he died and he then was using the old memory backup. He can't show it anymore. Well, at least it makes that scene more valuable
I liked Nova from the beggining. He may was doing bad stuff, but he was giving to people what they wanted, more or less.
Also, lack of empathy is justified in both manga and movie, but with different reasons. I hope they will not make him just another evil in later movies. If we are getting sequels, that is. It is okay if he just looks evil when we know almost nothing about him, because he has room for fleshing-out/development.

[GrubEater]

Having not seen the movie, I can't comment on how it compares to the manga overall. But from what I've seen already and from what I read here, I have to be honest and say the reason I was excited for the movie to be made no longer exists.

For starters, I was hoping to see a live action movie - that is, where you could look at Alita and, like the Terminator, not know she was a cyborg if she were wearing clothes and gloves because she could pass as human. It would have made it all feel more real and gut-wrenching for me, especially when she gets her ass kicked and needs a replacement body. The look they gave her reminds me too much of those Snapchat pictures young girls often take... Who knows, maybe the film will be a big hit with that demographic.

Secondly, I didn't like the anime and was disappointed it was used at all as a reference for the film. But I guess, seeing as it has Chiren in it, maybe the makers wanted to include more female roles?

The couple of points I do like, though, are related to Ido - first, that in the film he doesn't name Alita after his dead cat but rather a human being - his daughter - it adds more emotional depth. And also, he doesn't kill a prostitute to get arms for Alita - this never sat well with me in the manga. Even if Alita does disapprove of what Ido does in the manga, I still like to think of Ido as being kinder than that, and I think most lay viewers would like to think of a saviour and doctor as being kinder than that as well.

Overall, as a still-to-experience-the-movie goer, I'd say most of the decisions made by the director/producers/writers were to build empathy with the audience, which was a wise move.

I just wish the eyes weren't so damn big.

[kamugin]

And also, he doesn't kill a prostitute to get arms for Alita - this never sat well with me in the manga. Even if Alita does disapprove of what Ido does in the manga, I still like to think of Ido as being kinder than that, and I think most lay viewers would like to think of a saviour and doctor as being kinder than that as well.

Are you saying that Ido killed a prostitute to get those arms for alita?! If that was what you think, you must go back and read again the first story.

[Abaddon]

I would not even call it serious. They are just dead. Zero emotions. While talking about emotions. What they were thinking about. I found Anime-series to be okay, because it had some emotions and some light moment, with some interesting ideas, like the name itself "Stand Alone Complex". And live-action movie was lame mostly because of the setting. It is supposed to be a future, but I thought they even lacked non-fantasy technology. Liked Batou, though. Likeable guy, as always.

Watch the intro for the Playstation game, I think that's the only time they got the manga's "tone" right, and it's just the Mayor doing strange ""dancing"" moves.

I don't want to disappoint you guys, but I liked gits movie a lot. I was constantly having a thought "They've made something good out of it, finally!" while I was watching it. I don't like Scarlett Johansen at all, but she blended in perfectly there.

I also don't like Scarlett Johansen, but that was like, the least of that movie problems... for me at least. I can see why other people would like it tho, I don't want to come up as a hater or something, most people trashed that movie for casting an american instead of a japanese, but I don't have a problem with that.

[Cahir]

I would not even call it serious. They are just dead. Zero emotions. While talking about emotions. What they were thinking about. I found Anime-series to be okay, because it had some emotions and some light moment, with some interesting ideas, like the name itself "Stand Alone Complex". And live-action movie was lame mostly because of the setting. It is supposed to be a future, but I thought they even lacked non-fantasy technology. Liked Batou, though. Likeable guy, as always.

Watch the intro for the Playstation game, I think that's the only time they got the manga's "tone" right, and it's just the Mayor doing strange ""dancing"" moves.

"dancing" Yeah, it is closest

[Abaddon]

The movie got pretty bad reviews but good word of mouth from the public, so it's not hard to assume is going to be a cult classic. But there is something that bothers me: people who praise film, they don't talk about manga BUT the movie as an adaptation of the OVAs. They say "well, I read a few chapters of the manga and is pretty much the same thing". I don't know how everyone feels about the anime, but I think is really bad. It always bothered me how they took away Makaku who is a much more interesting "villain" then the one dimensional Grewcica which sole purpose is being the bad guy who likes to eat brains for shits and giggles, instead of Makaku's being addicted to endorfine after a life of just suffering.

[00_unit]

I wonder what crazyankan thinks of this film, rippersanime gave his opinion already I'm curious to hear what crazyankan thought of it.

[Martin]

Manga Nova is an amazing villain(s). The secret of Tiphares and his role in that narration would be an all time AMAZING movie scene...God knows what BS they have in mind now.

[Martin]

I thought the anime was whatever. I never liked book 1, but we had to start somewhere.

I think they gave away SOOOOO much of the Mars history, badly...we knew nothing but a good guess about Panzer Kunst and "I think I'm from Mars" and speaker mouth guy we still don't know anything about, after fighting Jashugan.

Nova is the boss of all of Zalem and he was the Martian's main Enemy and there were a bunch of sky cities is just such a big picture change from the amazing framework yk has slowly been developing. They at least read Last Order book 1, because we got Gelda...

They gave her such memories that were so so so weak compared to the TWO Martian Warrior Yoko scenarios we got in the manga...we thought the original fake ending was bad...lol...the Camlam tragedy is about the most violent violence ever depicted....imaginable....like beyond those really crappy kung fu movie silly violence.

I hate complaining about plot changes from the manga because a movie has to check some boxes in its production lifecycle; but it just feels like the best parts are now off the table.

[Skatche]

Regarding Nova: I think he could still end up being extremely faithful to the manga. I'm still not convinced he was ever actually interested in getting a hold of her heart.

Nova's primary motivation in the manga is to identify individuals with deep karma and test them. He's not afraid to lie and manipulate people in order to do that -- as when he sends Alita on a suicide mission with an illegal weapon to take down her nemesis, whom he's also given an immensely powerful body to combat her. Alita herself hints at that in her climactic scene with Hugo: "Nova is using you to get to me". But how could he have known Hugo would climb the supply tube? It suggests that he's several steps ahead of everyone, and says and does things for their effects rather than their truth value. So I think he asked for her heart from his champion Grewishka only in order to force her into confrontation. We'll see how the sequels pan out, but that's my guess.

[jjaquinta]

Nova's primary motivation in the manga is to identify individuals with deep karma and test them.

Well, if the prequel novel is anything to go by, he's just a tin-plated dictator. They talk about the twelve flying cities, and how only one survived the Mars attack, and how the people of that city wanted the stability and strength of a firm, purposeful leader. It's real finger-down-throat stuff. Very cliched. Maybe the second movie will depart from it. But I suspect not.

[Neksus]

Nova's primary motivation in the manga is to identify individuals with deep karma and test them.

Well, if the prequel novel is anything to go by, he's just a tin-plated dictator. They talk about the twelve flying cities, and how only one survived the Mars attack, and how the people of that city wanted the stability and strength of a firm, purposeful leader. It's real finger-down-throat stuff. Very cliched. Maybe the second movie will depart from it. But I suspect not.

I can't understand how Cameron can claim himself as a fan of manga if he agreed with that stupidity...

[Skatche]

Well, if the prequel novel is anything to go by, he's just a tin-plated dictator. They talk about the twelve flying cities, and how only one survived the Mars attack, and how the people of that city wanted the stability and strength of a firm, purposeful leader. It's real finger-down-throat stuff. Very cliched. Maybe the second movie will depart from it. But I suspect not.

Far as I'm concerned, the original material began and ended in the original manga run, plus the "second ending" Kishiro wrote which is no longer considered canon. I've only read a couple issues of New Order, and nothing else beside the original. Desty Nova wasn't a leader in the original manga, he was a renegade outcast. Faced with his own machine nature -- and being the only character except Lou who was able to withstand the horror of it -- he began to study man as a whole being rather than as a sum of its bits. His research into karma might seem absurd to a complacent scientist, but it makes more sense in that context, and Ido was forced to agree, although he wiped his own memory. Here's hoping the sequels keep true to that part of his story.

[HumanRage]

Saw it the other day, loved many many moments, and i'm glad i read your comments so i didn't made a heart attack

[Silvery]

Also finally saw it the other day.

It's... surprisingly okay. I like that it departs pretty early from the manga, as there is less to be irked about, and it's even easier to see it as a dumbed down alternate story - and in that context it kinda works. It's also very impressive visuals-wise - I think I liked everything, from the cyborg bodies through the crowd to the vistas. Shame that the score is so bland - I expected a bit more from a person who did the Fury Road score. Even his music for Mortal Engines was better.

I'd say that most of the shuffling around they did with various concepts and plot threads makes sense. No Makaku - understandable, his story would be too complicated to cram into a movie that already tries to adapt two volumes of a densely written manga and adds a dash of the third volume. As it was mentioned before, Ido having a clearly father/daughter-like relationship with Alita is a better choice for the PG-13 rating than their somewhat murky relationship in the manga. The addition of Chiren was also a fairly good idea and a huge improvement over the OVA version. Alita being a soldier rather than a terrorist was another understandable choice. Various little things like this version of Koyomi, Hugo riding the monocycle or Alita's number as a soldier being 99 were cute and made me believe that the creators did in fact read the entirety of Gunnm - and, who knows, maybe a bit of Last Order as well.

For me the weakest parts were Nova (a couple of words about that below) and the rather kitschy flashbacks. On the other hand, I appreciate that the flashbacks show that Alita isn't the only bug-eyed creature in existence. I also wish there was less talking - although I do admit that this is a flaw typical of American entertainment (poor Americans must be afraid of silence). Same with cheesy dialogue - I'm not saying that I liked it, but it would be hard to fault this movie specifically. The movie could also use less seriousness - Zapan, Vector and Hugo were too serious and too ~*~kewl~*~.

And even though I think that the movie was way more coherent than I expected it to be, Ido being suddenly enthusiastic and supportive of Alita's desire to play motorball is hard to describe in other terms than "a plot hole". And cutting out Hugo's brother as well as removing him from the final confrontation with Vector undermines Hugo's motivation/obsession greatly.

On the other hand, I was afraid that they wouldn't have the 'nads to kill off Hugo, so I was glad when it turned out that they, in fact, did. Chiren's role in saving his brain earlier was a decent idea, too.

Was the Scrapyard a bit too clean? Maybe, but - also as you folks have already mentioned - we see it through Alita's eyes, and she's fascinated by everything (and Salazar's acting makes Alita being an amazed teenager with one hell of a temper look damn believable). Plus I'm tired of cookie-cutter grayish brown post-apo landscapes that are so popular in various media nowadays. Life can be shitty and while also being somewhat colourful and interesting.

I also admit through gritted teeth that Alita as a CG creature was done really, really well. I still think that she should've been portrayed on screen by Rosa Salazar, though. At the very least they shouldn't have gone with those damn eyes, even if it's true that one gets mostly used to them while watching.

Oh yes, and while I don't fully understand the addition of motorball (other than "people will love this and we might not get another chance to show it"), I think it was weaved into the plot in an acceptable way. I think it looked fine (just like all the fights - hard to complain about the fights not being even faster - viewers should see what's going on), I liked all the name drops, and I liked the transition from the track to the rooftop chase. I also remember that the lack of any mention of motorball in the first two volumes felt a bit weird to me when I was reading the manga for the first time all these years ago.

All in all, I was surprised by how much I liked it compared with my earlier expectations. It wasn't the adaptation of my dreams, but I've always known that a truly great Western adaptation of Alita was an impossible task. It definitely wasn't as horrible and disjointed as GitS (and the scenes aping the various manga panels were less cringy), it didn't piss me off, and it's one of the very few passable adaptations of great books/mangas that exist. I'll surely rewatch it even if only to admire all the stuff happening in the background. Hell, I wouldn't even mind a sequel - I guess they could take some material from the 3rd to 5th volumes (let's be honest, movies like that are pretty formulaic, so berserking Zapan as a villain of the second part of a trilogy could work). Just reinstate Jashugan as the one and only champion or else...!

My mother, with whom I've seen it, was pleased as well, and the movie might make her finally read the manga, so that's always a plus.

There's also a bunch of less important observations, but I'm too tired to write a more coherent post, much less list my reactions to all of the tiny details, and the the post is a shameless wall of text already.

Thus we got that depiction of Nova: the very essence of evil. Is there anybody among us that doesn't like Nova? That sees him as plain evil? Nova has as much importance as Ido in shaping Alita's persona. Nova is just another victim of the tyranny behind Tiphares/Zalem. Or, perhaps like he himself woud define, just another living being subjected to the flow of karma that is life. Trindad woud be more suited to the role of a god like evil villain, in spite of even him isn't plain evil.

While he sure makes an impression and I agree that he's one of the most important people to shape Alita's life... I dislike him. Almost all of his appearances grate on my nerves (except maybe Porta Nova, that version was a bit more palatable). And yes, he's too chaotic evil for me to have some sympathy for him as a victim - it would be the same as trying to show Thanos as somewhat reasonable and almost human (and I'm saying this as a person who mostly likes watching MCU). I just don't buy it. In fact, the only moment when I had some sympathy for him was during the Ouroboros sequence.

Still, the movie Nova felt too flat to be seen as "the essence of evil". I'd say that he was one of the weakest parts of the movie. I also have to disagree with some mentions of him being the big bad of Zalem - c'mon, we don't know that (unless it's said in the novel, which I didn't read, and I'm not sure if I want to). I also don't think that casting Norton was a good choice. I *did* like one scene featuring Nova - when dying Vector/Nova converses with Alita. That one was really good. Makes me sad that even if they make a sequel, we won't be seeing Mahershala Ali anymore... unless movie Nova knows some of manga Nova's tricks.

Just about every time Alita went "HIYAA!" during an attack was extremely cringy.

It was super cringy, but, IIRC, we had to endure it only once.

As for GitS - I think that the manga is okay, but it's also an overrated mess, and let's not talk about the sequels. I do like the first movie and all of the SAC stuff. I even kinda accept the Arise version - it feels less GitS-like than the other versions, but it's still better than the movie. I think they should've made a straight adaptation of Arise, too - that way the Major acting like an angry teenager would feel a bit easier to accept, not to mention that maybe then there would be no shitty movie-only plot twists and no bizarre additions from the second season of SAC (I mean, Kuze and Batou were one of the better parts of the live action movie, but still - uprooting Kuze from the convoluted plot revolving around the Individual Eleven and adding him to the majority of Oshii's movie makes even less sense that adding motorball to the first two volumes of Gunnm).

[jjaquinta]

I love "walls of text". More content to read. Anyway, some thoughts and reactions...

Hugo. The prequel novel does bring in his brother and his quest for Zalem as motivation. (Although he wants to fly a hot-air drone over the city and take pictures, not physically go there.) Since, to its detriment, the pre-quel seems mostly based on the movie/script rather than the Manga, I suspect that this might have been in Cameron's version of the script, but Rodriguez cut it for length.

Alita's Eyes. Personally, I barely t even really notice them. However, the stated reason for making her "bug eyed" was to highlight that she wasn't human. So that there was always that wall between her and everyone else, and have it drive the character development. If that was their goal, and they didn't go in the direction of the eyes, they would have had to emphasize it some other way. Like having more gratuitously obvious machine parts, or gaping holes in her body you could see through. These choices would have been much more cliched and monster-of-the-week options. So I think the choice of using the eyes to project her difference was a good one.

Nova. I haven't got to the novel yet. I'm still slogging through the very tepid prequel. But, yes, Nova is the "big bad" of Zalem. Here is a quote:

Once the actual hostilities ceased, Zaelm's residents saw the cirtue of a more structured society, with stronger leadership. Everyone hoped war would not come again for a very long time, but when it did, having a distinct and strong authority in place would prevent them from becoming hostages to misfortune. In fact, unambiguous leadership was crucial to their survival now.

There's some more, specifically about Nova. But that will give you the flavor of it. I'm not a Nova fan at all, but the "Karmic Researcher" version is much more interesting than, yet another, wanna-be Hitler. This could just be invention on the part of the author, but I suspect not.

[kamugin]

Since the trailers release, I told you guys that I was displeased on how the Panzer Kunst was choreographed in the movie: too slow and too conventional average moves like most of movies with similar action sequences. Well, I few days ago I watched the season two of Castlevania on Netflix. Since the first series I liked the choreography of the fights, but in episode seven of the second run, when Alucard, Belmont and Sypha assaulted Dracula's castle, we got to see some amazing fights / action sequences. That trio are awesome ass kickers, but the fight against Dracula himself was even more breathtaking, specially when it gets down to the melee between Alucard and Dracula themselves: very powerful strikes and moves as fast as hell. This was the kind of shit I wanted to see in Alita's movie and I knew I won't get. Castlevania proves that there are people in the US that know very well how to make visually amazing fights, if Alita Battle Angel didn't get the same treatment, we know who are to blame.

[Sam]

Well it's an anime. We're talking about a movie here. Even though they could make it enterily in CGI I doubt that this would be that easy or convincing enough if you do not put motion capture in it. I agree that I was expectinig faster movements and better choreography but visually increasing speed will only result in blurs or more slow motion sequences. The part where she grabs Zapan's throat was actually quite cool!

[kamugin]

Well it's an anime. We're talking about a movie here. Even though they could make it enterily in CGI I doubt that this would be that easy or convincing enough if you do not put motion capture in it. I agree that I was expectinig faster movements and better choreography but visually increasing speed will only result in blurs or more slow motion sequences. The part where she grabs Zapan's throat was actually quite cool!

Castlevania isn't anime, because it wasn't made in Japan.
Superhero movies nowadays are almost entirely CG animation, plus an amazing fight sequence has been featured some six years ago in the "Man of Steel" movie. Watch it and pay special attention to Faora's moves https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-RhRXZVHPo

[Cahir]

Well it's an anime. We're talking about a movie here. Even though they could make it enterily in CGI I doubt that this would be that easy or convincing enough if you do not put motion capture in it. I agree that I was expectinig faster movements and better choreography but visually increasing speed will only result in blurs or more slow motion sequences. The part where she grabs Zapan's throat was actually quite cool!

Castlevania isn't anime, because it wasn't made in Japan.
Superhero movies nowadays are almost entirely CG animation, plus an amazing fight sequence has been featured some six years ago in tme "Man of Steel" movie. Watch it and pay special attention to Faora's moves https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-RhRXZVHPo

I watched that movie few days ago and was thinking how it could work with Alita movie. So I wanted to put that link here myself
But it also is from Zack Snyder and we all know what kind of reputation he has. That may have been a reason for holding back. Also that power-level may also be risky for plot reasons. I mean, it would have been impossible to suspend the disbelief, that with such speed Panzer Kunst users were not able to take Nova.

PS: I dislike DCEU movies, but I found MoS to be really good and better than any MCU movie.

[Sam]

Yes, you're quite right with "man of steel". When I saw it I even thought that this is what a dragon ball z movie would look like, fight scene wise!
The question now is: how fast do you think Gally is when fighting her first fight against Makaku?

[kamugin]

Also that power-level may also be risky for plot reasons. I mean, it would have been impossible to suspend the disbelief, that with such speed Panzer Kunst users were not able to take Nova.

Well, Alita may not be able to throw a locomotive in the air hundreds of meters away, but she has a considerable amount of super strength and invulnerability herself. We saw that when she fought the GIB robots and Sachumodo, plus I see no reason why she couldn't be as fast as Faora. Regarding Nova, he could defeat the kunstlers using nanomachines hacking like Trindad did, just to mention one way. Let's face it, the action sequences in Alita Battle Angel movie are pretty lame.

[kamugin]

The question now is: how fast do you think Gally is when fighting her first fight against Makaku?

As fast as Faora, like i said before. Just remember, Makaku pointed that Alita wouldn't be able to move at supersonic speeds while holding the baby Koyomi, moreover the grind cutter Makaku took from Kinuba was also supersonic. Alita don't throw locomotives, but she certainly is able to wreck one with her eletromagnectic punch