Artistic influence in BAA

Yohash · Post by **Yohash** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:28 am

I am currently studying art in university, and am interested in my free time as well.

When I was recently rereading the original series, I came to a picture of Makaku eating someone's brain on page 50 of volume 1.

It is extremely reminiscent of Francisco Goya's Saturn Devouring his Son
http://www.artlex.com/ArtLex/g/images/g ... urn.lg.JPG

Knowing that Kishiro was formally trained in art school, and his tendency to insert many cultural, historical and scientific references, I doubt this is coincidental. Anyone else have any other artistic parallels /quotations/inspirations that they have found in BAA or LO?

(many of nova's creations and venusians seem influenced by Hieronymous Bosch)

Post by **crazyankan** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:33 pm

http://www.nick15.com/kudos.html here is a list of lots gunnm references.

It's some likeness with Makaku and "Saturn Devouring his Son", but it's not a direct reference. Too many things that are different. The body is at wrong direction and Makaku have a different stance.

But still keep looking, I bet there are still lots of things we haven't found

Sergio Nova · Post by **Sergio Nova** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:04 pm

Yohash wrote: (many of nova's creations and venusians seem influenced by Hieronymous Bosch)

I believe that is a sort of poetic licence of yours. Actually, any sort of art representing a collection of nightmares will, intentionally or not, remit to Hieronymous Bosch.

Yohash · Post by **Yohash** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:12 pm

Though you must agree, Kishiro's art does not emerge from nothing, there are artistic and stylistic precedents to his works

moooV · Post by **moooV** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:19 pm

I beleive, it can emerge from nothing (though, I'm not very familiar to art). All great masterpieces should emerge from nothing (something came {in a dream, under alcohol or narcotics, under affect} or just spontaneously by itself).

However, influence is in account either, but just as something subconsious, not intentional.

Sergio Nova · Post by **Sergio Nova** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:21 pm

Yohash wrote:Though you must agree, Kishiro's art does not emerge from nothing, there are artistic and stylistic precedents to his works

There certainly are uncountable quotations.

Cailon · Post by **Cailon** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:21 am

That exactly is the hardest difference to tell, a freudian unconsciousness or the awareness of a quoutation. As for "Jupiter devouring his sons" I think, for a former art- student the "Makaku-scene" is more than a simple "great minds think alike", it could really be a direct reminiscence.
And its interstinmg, because until today the most readers only did find out about movie-, music- or historical references, but not about art-references.

Sergio Nova · Post by **Sergio Nova** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:48 am

I will have to agree with crazyankan. If Kishiro were quoting Goya, he would have reproduced the painting instead of making a slight reference. Thus, in this specific case, I daresay it is only a coincidence.

ack44 · Post by **ack44** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:49 am

Now I'm confused. Are we talking about influences or references?

Isidorios · Post by **Isidorios** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:37 am

Simon Bisley's Slaine is the direct inspiration for the Champion Kinuba

moooV · Post by **moooV** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:19 am

Not only maybe. Take a look at the background of this picture. More particularly, to a big head there. o_0

Sergio Nova · Post by **Sergio Nova** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:59 pm

Isidorios wrote: Simon Bisley's Slaine is the direct inspiration for the Champion Kinuba

Sláine, as well as many other cultural references, is listed in the glossary.
Take a look at it. Any suggestion to be included is welcome.

Post by **crazyankan** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:12 pm

I am doing right now a Kudos list version 2 or something like that.
A Kudos list with pictures.
http://www.nick15.com/kudos.html

Sergio Nova · Post by **Sergio Nova** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:27 pm

crazyankan wrote:I am doing right now a Kudos list version 2 or something like that.
A Kudos list with pictures.
http://www.nick15.com/kudos.html

It will certainly be great!!!

ack44 · Post by **ack44** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:42 am

　I keep hearing that Yukito ripped off Frank Miller. What's the deal with this? Are there any pics?

Dream · Post by **Dream** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:10 am

ack44 wrote:　I keep hearing that Yukito ripped off Frank Miller. What's the deal with this? Are there any pics?

Ash Viktor was made imitating the B&W style of Sin City, but it was an hommage, not a rip-off.

Also, for the art influence in Gunnm, I wouldn't try too hard. Artists tends to use things from their experience all the time, and because one frame would look like some other stuff doesn't especially mean that the author is an hardcore fan of it or is trying to put message ehere and there. He may have seen it on TV or in a magazine when working, and thought it was good. I do this all the time when drawing. I know Yukito Kishiro is a pretty erudite person, but I don't think he plans every of his panels that much.

Post by **crazyankan** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:36 pm

ack44 wrote:　I keep hearing that Yukito ripped off Frank Miller. What's the deal with this? Are there any pics?

BAA 07: page 27-35 The fight between Gally and the ninjas is an almost exact copy of one in Frank Miller's Elektra: Lives story.

Sergio Nova · Post by **Sergio Nova** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:24 pm

As crazyankan said, it's a homage, simply.

In a homage, the reference is clear, while a plagiarist pretends to be the original author. Kishiro quotes in a way that the reference is explicit.

You have a more detailed explanation in the glossary, in the entry Frank Miller.

@crazyankan: The American original title is Elektra Lives Again.

ack44 · Post by **ack44** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:21 am

Hmm, I wouldn't be too quick to say it's a homage when we're dealing with an American comic here. The Japanese readers aren't going to be familiar with any American comics unless they are crazy fans. American comics aren't sold here at all.

Dream · Post by **Dream** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:35 am

ack44 wrote:American comics aren't sold here at all.

You are completely wrong. Comics characters are very popular in Japan. They are exotic but popular. I mean, do you really think Capcom or Konami would make vidoegames based on something obscure? Not even talking about all the various Marvel/DC characters manga adaptation.
They even had a friggin' Spiderman show.

There's already tons of western stuff in Gunnm anyway, so I may believe Kishiro is some sort of "reverse weeaboo" at a certain level.

ack44 · Post by **ack44** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:51 am

Nope, I'm not wrong. Comics are.... at the least, extremely hard to find. Sometimes animation gets around... Tin Tin or Ninja Turtles. People know about Superman and Spiderman and Batman but nobody has ever read the comics.

Sergio Nova · Post by **Sergio Nova** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:37 pm

ack44 wrote:Nope, I'm not wrong. Comics are.... at the least, extremely hard to find. Sometimes animation gets around... Tin Tin or Ninja Turtles. People know about Superman and Spiderman and Batman but nobody has ever read the comics.

Do you really believe Kishiro has learned about Miller through telepathy?
As far as I am concerned, authors like Frank Miller, Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman are published in Japan - at least to a selected audience. By the way, where have you learned about Frank Miller?

P.S. If you are in Japan, why are you looking for Gunnm Gaiden?

ack44 · Post by **ack44** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:52 am

Sergio wrote:
ack44 wrote:Nope, I'm not wrong. Comics are.... at the least, extremely hard to find. Sometimes animation gets around... Tin Tin or Ninja Turtles. People know about Superman and Spiderman and Batman but nobody has ever read the comics.
Do you really believe Kishiro has learned about Miller through telepathy?
As far as I am concerned, authors like Frank Miller, Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman are published in Japan - at least to a selected audience. By the way, where have you learned about Frank Miller?

P.S. If you are in Japan, why are you looking for Gunnm Gaiden?

I'm just mentioning all this because during the "Handle Name" incident people were accusing Kishiro of ripping off Frank Miller. Nobody here thought of it as a homage, because nobody was really familiar with Frank Miller's work. In Japan, manga artists sometimes blatantly steal battle scenes or lines (usually from other manga), and so it's easy to get critisized.

I'm not looking for Gaiden (I own that), just looking for Ashen Victor in Japanese.

Cailon · Post by **Cailon** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:03 am

The face of the Cheshire-cat in Tojis story to me looks a bit like the cat-bus from Miyazaki's "My Neighbour Totoro".
Could be too far-fetched though.

http://www.nutsidea.net/wombats/wp-cont ... totoro.jpg

Dream · Post by **Dream** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:07 pm

Cailon wrote:The face of the Cheshire-cat in Tojis story to me looks a bit like the cat-bus from Miyazaki's "My Neighbour Totoro".
Could be too far-fetched though.

http://www.nutsidea.net/wombats/wp-cont ... totoro.jpg

Nah, cheshire cat has this grin from the original book illustration.

Artistic influence in BAA

Artistic influence in BAA

Re: Artistic influence in BAA