Artistic influence in BAA

[crazyankan]

I asked the admin @ http://www.theoldrobots.com/ if he had a clue about the other two robots in this page.
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/8574/091pj2.jpg

"Hi Andreas, Thanks for the mail. I do not know the robots but I will look into itand followup with the information. Please be patient,Ron"

[Sergio Nova]

Nah, cheshire cat has this grin from the original book illustration.

I have to agree with you.

[Cailon]

The only illustration I found was this one:
and she doesn't grin so much at all. (Maybe you thought of the Disney-version? (no offense ). Kishiros cat more grins like a mix of Carroll's and the catbus-version.

But regarding the pose of the cat and the whole compisition of the picture, down to every little branch, you are right, its a clear reference to this illustration!

[spamlet2002]

off the top of my head, the ninja ambush scene from angel of death references frank miller's elektra lives again. source:

http://blog.adlo.es/2007/08/swipe_of_th ... iller.html

also, the style in victor ashen is an homage to miller's sin city.

finally, sechs (esp. first appearance) seems to follow romita jr's style (check out his typhoid mary).

see attached images, etc

[moooV]

Indeed is. o_0

[Dream]

interesting, I didn't see that being THAT blatant. At least they are redrawn and not completely traced.

[Sergio Nova]

The only illustration I found was this one:
and she doesn't grin so much at all. (Maybe you thought of the Disney-version? (no offense ). Kishiros cat more grins like a mix of Carroll's and the catbus-version.

But regarding the pose of the cat and the whole compisition of the picture, down to every little branch, you are right, its a clear reference to this illustration!

That image is from chapter 6. Take a look at chapter 8:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rgs/alice-table.html

[Sergio Nova]

off the top of my head, the ninja ambush scene from angel of death references frank miller's elektra lives again. source:

http://blog.adlo.es/2007/08/swipe_of_th ... iller.html

also, the style in victor ashen is an homage to miller's sin city.

déjà vu

[ack44]

off the top of my head, the ninja ambush scene from angel of death references frank miller's elektra lives again. source:

http://blog.adlo.es/2007/08/swipe_of_th ... iller.html

Ah, finally some good pictures! I've been looking for a while.

[spamlet2002]

off the top of my head, the ninja ambush scene from angel of death references frank miller's elektra lives again. source:

http://blog.adlo.es/2007/08/swipe_of_th ... iller.html

also, the style in victor ashen is an homage to miller's sin city.

déjà vu

what, again?

[spamlet2002]

I asked the admin @ http://www.theoldrobots.com/ if he had a clue about the other two robots in this page.
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/8574/091pj2.jpg

"Hi Andreas, Thanks for the mail. I do not know the robots but I will look into itand followup with the information. Please be patient,Ron"

the one on the left is robby the robot, from lost in space:

http://www.googoobutt.com/2007/07/08/ro ... bot-rules/

the one on the right is maximillian, from the black hole:

http://www.collectiondx.com/node/529

[crazyankan]

spamlet2002: Should had wrote that I already knew robby the robot and maximillian. Should be interesting to see if the other two has some kind of connection to a movie or something.

[spamlet2002]

Now I'm confused. Are we talking about influences or references?

influences or references? in terms of style, theme, narrative, and so on? they're not necessarily mutually exclusive, but i suppose it helps to qualify the referent.

so for example, someone's earlier post on robots excavated references to movies (lost in space & the black hole), but in this instance, it'd be a stretch to suggest yk's work was influenced by those characters/films. you can view this as yk displaying cultural awareness, or leaving easter eggs for those inclined to search, but certainly not too much more than a passing nod.

however, with something like miller's/jansen's elektra lives again, you can see yk references a particular scene--composition, layout, style, etc. the parallels are unmistakable. moreover, you could argue that yk's treatment of alita's situation is influenced by elektra lives again in other, and perhaps more profound ways. there are thematic/narrative continuities between that volume of alita and the miller/jansen work: some sort of morbid rebirth, being compelled to serve some agency (gib/the hand), the struggle against detachment, the emotional habitus of alita/elektra respectively, etc.

the interesting question following this thread would be: in yk's works, what would it mean to be influenced by something and not reference it? is there even such an example in his work? why would it matter if such an overlap could even be detected/catalogued?.

[spamlet2002]

That exactly is the hardest difference to tell, a freudian unconsciousness or the awareness of a quoutation. As for "Jupiter devouring his sons" I think, for a former art- student the "Makaku-scene" is more than a simple "great minds think alike", it could really be a direct reminiscence.
And its interstinmg, because until today the most readers only did find out about movie-, music- or historical references, but not about art-references.

don't forget about intention on the part of the reader/viewer, i.e. projection of some significance or recognized element onto the artwork.

[denzacar]

The only illustration I found was this one:
and she doesn't grin so much at all. (Maybe you thought of the Disney-version? (no offense ). Kishiros cat more grins like a mix of Carroll's and the catbus-version.

But regarding the pose of the cat and the whole compisition of the picture, down to every little branch, you are right, its a clear reference to this illustration!

The illustration above is from the original (or one of the first) edition(s) of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.
I have one of those "complete facsimile editions" of Lewis Carrol - and it has that very same illustration.

As for the Catbus - it might be the case of Miyazaki referencing Carrol as well.

Might be the case with Miller too. Both artists referencing earlier "iconic" work.


But Romita Jr.... Nope... can't see any resemblance, sorry.

[spamlet2002]

But Romita Jr.... Nope... can't see any resemblance, sorry.

lol, you're certainly entitled to that thought, but to be fair, others have also commented on it:

http://www.comicbookbin.com/battleangel ... er010.html

[ack44]

the interesting question following this thread would be: in yk's works, what would it mean to be influenced by something and not reference it? is there even such an example in his work? why would it matter if such an overlap could even be detected/catalogued?.

Aren't we products of what influences us? Kishiro's art is influenced by the Japanese manga culture, but it's not a reference to anything.

[spamlet2002]

Aren't we products of what influences us? Kishiro's art is influenced by the Japanese manga culture, but it's not a reference to anything.

well, there is no manga that isn't influenced by japanese manga culture, so i should probably phrase my question differently.

has yk discussed or mentioned particular artistic influences that haven't been stylistically inflected in gunnm?

[Sergio Nova]

has yk discussed or mentioned particular artistic influences that haven't been stylistically inflected in gunnm?

The philosophers are quoted explicitally, for obvious reasons.
The artistic references\influences\quotations are explicit, but obviously only to who knows the origins. To the ones who do not know will read without problems, anyway.

[spamlet2002]

has yk discussed or mentioned particular artistic influences that haven't been stylistically inflected in gunnm?

The philosophers are quoted explicitally, for obvious reasons.
The artistic references\influences\quotations are explicit, but obviously only to who knows the origins. To the ones who do not know will read without problems, anyway.

that makes sense. i'm wondering though, if he's discussed influences in his interviews that we've yet to locate in gunnm. so for example, if he's claimed to be influenced by a particular artist/thinker, but doesn't "quote" them explicitly.

[hepar]

Aren't we products of what influences us? Kishiro's art is influenced by the Japanese manga culture, but it's not a reference to anything.

I second this. If Kishiro was for exmple russian (as I am) we wold likely to see some references to russian fairytales, or characters influenced by some sportsmen, or quite famos figures like Bykovsky, Leo Matsievitch, Zaitsev, Bondarenko, Kopelyan, Rossi* which of course you haven't even ever heard of. But he would use them without any second thought and sometimes without even thinking about it.
For example, if there was a character who are likely to fully analise the situation in quet place and make a big a net of lie for other characters to get caught in it... I would give him a habit to inlay a pictures of animals using matches while he think. That minor detail woud tell far too many for ex-soviet readers an would be completly mysterious for others. Or so it goes...

*(Traitor, aviator, sniper, kosmonaut, architector)

PS: And almost the same thought from the other guy:
http://www.rippersanime.com/Forum/viewt ... =5409#5409

[Cailon]

@hepar: Is that right, "Rossi" was an architect? Maybe Derossi, the Fizziroy engineer is a reference to him?

Also, see his action figures: http://jajatom.moo.jp/y-shosai/cn11/cn57/pg478.html (more links are in the Yukitopia-thread) -There are at least some familiar, "western" things, like the star wars merchandise. Besides, his website is full of intervierws, but unfortunately in japanese only.

[hepar]

@hepar: Is that right, "Rossi" was an architect? Maybe Derossi, the Fizziroy engineer is a reference to him?

No I was talking about Carlo di Giovanni Rossi (1775-1849). Im' not talking about any references in Gunnm - just talking about an influence of surrounding culture.

[Sergio Nova]

@hepar: Is that right, "Rossi" was an architect? Maybe Derossi, the Fizziroy engineer is a reference to him?

No I was talking about Carlo di Giovanni Rossi (1775-1849). Im' not talking about any references in Gunnm - just talking about an influence of surrounding culture.

You have simply made a colossal confusion, tovarish, as you included Rossi among several Russian names.

[moooV]

His parents were Italian, but he grew up in Russia. Also, he has always been considered Russian architect, because he had spent most of his life and had built a lot here in Saint Petersburg.

2 hepar: Росси и правда чуток не в тему. =)))