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What Cailon tries to say is that most of the Hollywood movies are full of cliches and templates. I've seen only several Hollywood movies not diseased by it: Watchmen, Butterfly Effect (1st only) and Sin City.

So, knowing all this and two trailers, I we can roughly figure out Avatar's plot:

1) Marine (American, of course) arrives to some planet with (!!!) breathable atmosphere.
2) U.S. Army wants to wipe out [Saddam] all the natives, because it wants some [oil] mineral resources.
3) A body is grown for the marine, it uses it to reach the natives and [plant a bomb, unleash a virus, simply kill them one by one, something else].
4) He falls in love (of course, like in all such movies) with some... lizard (o_0) with the boobs (o_O), who speaks ENGLISH (O_O) fluently [of course].
5) She tells him that his side are the bad guys, who are destroying the [rainforest, cannabis, lizards - choose anything you want], he says something like "Arrrgh, I was an asshole!!!", and they go back to kill all humans.
6) Of course, they succeed (it's Hollywood, babe) using bows, arrows, and hope ( ).
7) In the final battle with the boss she is deadly injured, but he tells her that he loves her and then she is cured (a HUGE lol).
Americans leave the planet, leaving that guy and his second body to rot at that planet in the stone age.

That's all. This plot is common for 99% of all movies, and that sickens me.

Because the viewer is supposed to sympathize with the nice aliens, and it's almost impossible for the director to achieve that if they're not vaguely humanoid. I thought District 9 did a good job of avoiding this though.

That's it. It may be hard for both the filmmakers and the audience, but it's possible. Like it was possible for Kubrick to make the space silent. Of course I won't expect every SciFi movie to be a classic and a groundbreaking one. But the moment JC began to make such a fuzz about Avatar, I kind of did expect "something special".
And now, the only "something special" will be the CGI effects - which (excuse my ignorance) will be in every video game in 5 years.

Didn't it say they have superhuman combat ability? That's why they have the avatars in the first place. They're hardly Ewoks at any rate. It's also not unprecedented for people with inferior technology to win military engagements (see the American revolution, Vietnam war)

No, I only meant Ewokish traps! Like stones or huge logs falling on the warmachines, triggered by a string and such childish games. I really think we will have those.

A musket is a musket, you have to load after each shot. Ok though, the british army sure was better organized. On the other hand, you have a point with the Vietcong. But that were more guerilla operations, and they still had guns (outdated models nonetheless!). Now in Avatar, I suppose we will see an all-out war, simply because guerilla wars don't make big showdowns^^ (the only option would be an open end, still many conflicts on Pandora, and a part 2)
And (but that is only in my theory), the Americans wouldn't want to see a SciFi version of their lost Vietnam War, but they would have no problem to see an alternative version of a war/ a conflict they've already won anyway (conquering the wild west). But thats just IMO and of course I can't truly judge that, being not an american citizen.

@Int: Lol, you should go to hollywood, becoming a writer
The only point missing: When Avatar's true nature is revealed, the chieftain attempts to kill him, but his daughter (in love) protects him.

@Sergio: I meant "in" America. Conquering America, almost every european nation made its hands dirty, very true.

It's also not unprecedented for people with inferior technology to win military engagements (see the American revolution, Vietnam war)

On the other hand, you have a point with the Vietcong. But that were more guerilla operations, and they still had guns (outdated models nonetheless!).

I have a few problems with these comments.

1. It's true that the Vietnam War is considered a political defeat for the US, and it weakened the Americans during the Cold War. But it's also a military victory for the US. The US military won every major military engagement against the Communists forces (the Vietcong and the North Vietnamese Army). In fact, the Communists forces suffered 20 times more casualties than the American forces and 5 times more than the South Vietnamese forces.

The truth is that while the US intervention lasted in South Vietnam, it was impossible for the Vietcong or North Vietnam to take over the South. Every major operation that the Communist forces launched against the South failed. The 1968 Tet Offensive cost the Vietcong over half of it's forces (40,000 - 50,000 guerrillas were killed) and failed to produced the intended "General Uprising". In fact, the Vietcong's losses were so great that it never recuperated completely and became totally dependant on the North for avaliable troops.

The 1972 Easter Offensive was also a major failier for the Communists. Hanoi, which had committed 14 divisions and 26 independent regiments to the offensive (virtually its entire army), suffered approximately 100,000 casualties and 450 tanks destroyed.

2. It's arguable that the Communist forces had inferior technology. It's true that the US dominated that skies and the US troops had air support. But remember that the Vietcong was just another division of the North Vietnamese Army. And North Vietnam was greatly aided by the Soviets and China. That means that the Communist forces were given MiG-17 and MiG-21 jet fighters, and PT-76 and T-54 battle tanks, which they used in the war.

The fact is that Americans left Vietnam running.
The number of dead Vietamese just increases the shame if you remember the usage of napalm and other chemical weapons. The images of civilians desperately trying the enter the helicopter while the Vietnamese troops approximate are the most humiliating of all.

The Soviets were intelligent enough to leave Afghanistan walking - while they could. And they did NOT have to promote the carnage Americans did. I am neither capitalist nor communist (and, please, do NOT tell me capitalism is a synonym for democracy). I simply believe that no country is supposed to interfere in other country's affair. It is a question of rights, simply.

Wow, I am impressed. This is why Gunnm fans are one of the most intellectualized fanbases. I love debates. This isn't personal, Sergio.

The fact is that Americans left Vietnam running..

No, actually the US left because they forced North Vietnam to sign the Paris Peace Accords in 1973. The deal was that North Vietnam wouldn't invade the South in exchange for the end of the US intervention. But apparently in 1975, two years after the end of the US intervention, someone (North Vietnam) broke the deal. But I don't call that running.

The number of dead Vietamese just increases the shame if you remember the usage of napalm and other chemical weapons.

Well, if I recall, the Communist forces were also guilty of war crimes, such as the Hué Massacre in 1968, where the Communist forces killed thousands of US sympathizers. When North Vietnam invaded the South in 1975, dozens of thousands of civilians were killed. In fact, it was a common policy of the Communists to attack and destroy villages that aided the US. In the end, the Communists aren't better that the Americans.

The images of civilians desperately trying the enter the helicopter while the Vietnamese troops approximate are the most humiliating of all.

"Humiliating" considering that the only US military forces in South Vietnam in 1975 were the US embassy MPs.

The Soviets were intelligent enough to leave Afghanistan walking - while they could.

From 1979 to 1989, 13,310 Soviet soldiers dead, 35,478 Wounded, and 311 Missing. By 1987, the Mujahideen controled 80% of the country. I am not saying that the Soviets lost the war since the Communist regime of Kabul lasted until 1992, but they didn't leave Afghan walking, either.

And they did NOT have to promote the carnage Americans did.

Estimates on Afghan civilian deaths during the Soviet invasion vary from about 1,000,000 to over 2,000,000. 5 million Afghans fled to Pakistan and Iran, 1/3 of the prewar population of the country. Another 2 million Afghans were displaced within the country. In the 1980s, one out of two refugees in the world was an Afghan.

Along with fatalities were 1.2 million Afghans disabled (mujahideen, government soldiers and noncombatants) and 3 million maimed or wounded (primarily noncombatants).

Irrigation systems, crucial to agriculture in Afghanistan's arid climate, were destroyed by aerial bombing and strafing by Soviet or government forces. In the worst year of the war, 1985, well over half of all the farmers who remained in Afghanistan had their fields bombed, and over one quarter had their irrigation systems destroyed and their livestock shot by Soviet or government troops.

The population of Afghanistan's second largest city, Kandahar, was reduced from 200,000 before the war to no more than 25,000 inhabitants, following a months-long campaign of carpet bombing and bulldozing by the Soviets and Afghan communist soldiers in 1987.

Nice.

I simply believe that no country is supposed to interfere in other country's affair. It is a question of rights, simply.

I agree with you. But South Vietnam asked for US assistance and the Communist government of Kabul asked for Soviet assistance.

No, it is not personnal. That is clear!

Well, you have brought details that I had not considered yet. I will have to study them carefully.

By the way: neither Soviets not Americans were able to extinguish the Taliban. That would make me agree with foreign intervention. That was certainly the worst régime on Earth.

No, it is not personnal. That is clear!

I said that it wasn't personal because history and politics, especially geo-politics, tend to be very devisive and people get very passionate when defending their cause. I try to be flexable and learn new things with these debates.

And besides, I doubt Naruto or Bleach fans discuss about American or Soviet international policy.

By the way: neither Soviets not Americans were able to extinguish the Taliban. That would make me agree with foreign intervention. That was certainly the worst régime on Earth.

Let's hope that the US and NATO finally defeat the Taliban, Afghanistan stops being a base for Al Qaeda and the country becomes a prosperous democracy in a decade or so. Yes, I know, this is wishful thinking.

Hello everybody, I follow this forum since a long time and I finally decided to register to respond to this comment ! (and to thanks a lot the team, of course).
Sorry for my bad english, I'm French you know !

I wait this movie since a long time, so I must respond to this post !

Int 29Ah wrote:So, knowing all this and two trailers, I we can roughly figure out Avatar's plot:

1) Marine (American, of course) arrives to some planet with (!!!) breathable atmosphere.
2) U.S. Army wants to wipe out [Saddam] all the natives, because it wants some [oil] mineral resources.
3) A body is grown for the marine, it uses it to reach the natives and [plant a bomb, unleash a virus, simply kill them one by one, something else].
4) He falls in love (of course, like in all such movies) with some... lizard (o_0) with the boobs (o_O), who speaks ENGLISH (O_O) fluently [of course].
5) She tells him that his side are the bad guys, who are destroying the [rainforest, cannabis, lizards - choose anything you want], he says something like "Arrrgh, I was an asshole!!!", and they go back to kill all humans.
6) Of course, they succeed (it's Hollywood, babe) using bows, arrows, and hope ( ).
7) In the final battle with the boss she is deadly injured, but he tells her that he loves her and then she is cured (a HUGE lol).
Americans leave the planet, leaving that guy and his second body to rot at that planet in the stone age.

That's all. This plot is common for 99% of all movies, and that sickens me.

1) You are completely wrong... The atmosphere of the planet is NOT breathable... Have you really watch the trailers ? In both, we can see that the Marines wear breath masks, you cannot miss that !
2) It is not the US Army, but a kind of private corporation (called the RDA). Yeah, evil capitalists rather than evil militarists...
3) Just to infiltrate them I think.
4) Of course, the alien girl looks cute (and where do you see that she is a lizard ? A lizard without reptilian eyes and scales, but with hair and boobs ? Come on, James Cameron is not stupid...) I completely admit that it is very cliché, but who would be attached to a giant fluorescent fungi with tentacles ? And for the English speaking, of course we can not see that in the trailer (but I understand your reaction, I would have the same), but there is a reason explained in the script : one of the humans simply taught her to speak English... A whole language has be created for this alien population, James Cameron knows what he does... But I think that showing the alien girl speaking English in the trailer was a mistake.
5) I don't think it will be so manicheist. James Cameron has said that there would be good guys and assholes in both sides... Why do you think that some humans want to find "a diplomatic solution" ?
6) Well, don't forget that the whole nature of the planete (even the atmosphere...) is completely hostile for the humans, but not for the aliens... So the natives have a huge advantage. You can see in the trailer that the aliens will "use" the animals (like the big dinosaur or the carnivore bird) to fight the humans. And the aliens are 3 meters tall and have a skeleton constituted of carbon fibers (or something like that, I don't remember exactly), so they might be not easy to kill...
7) Come on, don't be stupid One more time, we are talking about James Cameron, the guy who has written and directed Terminator 1 and 2, Aliens, Abyss... I really don't think that the end will be so cheesy... Even Titanic hasn't a happy end (except if you hate Leonardo Dicaprio )
How can we know ?

I understand your reaction, but come on, it is just a TRAILER. How can you judge a whole movie basing yourself on its trailer ? You have something personal against Cameron since he decided to make the Battle Angel Alita movie or what ?
And yes, the story seems quite cliché... I must admit the some point make me doubt (the hero who makes a speech in English to the alien population and say "this is OUR land", despite he is not a native, WTF ? I'm quite surprised that you have not noticed that ), but I trust James Cameron. Let me remind you that in many other SF movies, the aliens are always (or almost) more technologically advanced than humans (and sometimes attack our poor mankind...) With Avatar, it is the contrary.

You know, I think that all the possible stories have been already told... It is impossible to create something completely new and fresh (well at least Avatar is not an adaptation/sequel/prequel/remake/reboot, so we can almost say that is it relatively "new" and "fresh"...). Even Tolkien was inspired by nordic legends...

To conclude my point of view, I would say that the most important thing which distinguish a bad movie from a good movie is not the story itself, but the way you tell it...

@Burnung Angel: Thanks for that insight! Don't think your post was the threadkiller because until now, no one gave you the eloquent and long answer on that. I myself must sadly say that this always is the point where I'd love to discuss it further, but set aside my only general knowlegde of the Vietnam War, Im afraid my written english isn't good enough to express what I want to say It would take me hours to write a decent long response^^

@DDTL: Nice to meet you, welcome! Have fun here and hopefully we'll see you around!

Hm yeah, we are some kind of "proud haters" here We only want the best of the best for the BAA movie (and that can't be fulfilled, simply^^)
Your points are right of course and I'm sure that Int overdid it a little on purpose.

But only regarding James Camerons previous works, I have some objections:
- Terminator 1 & 2, lets not talk about the time-paradox, the idea was nice, it had something, especially for his first big movie.
- Aliens (Alien 2), well, I liked the subtle horror and suspense of the first one better (imo!). The action wasn't that bad, but the first one pointed more on the emptiness in space (who was it then, Ridley Scott?)
- Abyss, I know many people like it, but: totally NOT my cup of tea. Much too long, and in the last 10 minutes (in my feeling), suddenly aliens show up. They are soo uber-intelligent --- so they just want to blow us up, cause the western world fought some big and dirty wars. Wow, what a sophisticated mind they have, not! And what saved mankind from extinction, was it the many people opposed to wars, was it our literature, music, our philosophers, was it love in general? No, it was a single man, typing "love you, wife", thats all. That may be a nice handkerchief-scene for theaters but its pure Hollywood. I think that is that, what most people are afraid of, BAA turning into Hollywood.
- And Titanic, ok, big movie, huge set, 200 millions of $$, impressive, can't deny that. But Hollywood nonetheless. I think diCaprio is a great actor btw, only Titanic just was kind of bad luck for him, because of the "teen idol"-role he got.

2 DDTL:

That was just a joke, an exaggeration, which you've taken too seriously.

The point was that ALL such movies are full of clichés, and the parts of that post are just some well-known things, which, most likely, WILL appear in ANY Hollywood movie one by one in that form or another, but they WILL (take any recent mainstream movie as a reference, f.e. Transformers [1,2]).

PS.
I don't have anything against JC.
The only thing I'm trying to say is that the BAA movie SHOULDN'T be made no matter by WHOM, EVER!

Cailon wrote:- Abyss, I know many people like it, but: totally NOT my cup of tea. Much too long, and in the last 10 minutes (in my feeling), suddenly aliens show up. They are soo uber-intelligent --- so they just want to blow us up, cause the western world fought some big and dirty wars. Wow, what a sophisticated mind they have, not! And what saved mankind from extinction, was it the many people opposed to wars, was it our literature, music, our philosophers, was it love in general? No, it was a single man, typing "love you, wife", thats all. That may be a nice handkerchief-scene for theaters but its pure Hollywood. I think that is that, what most people are afraid of, BAA turning into Hollywood..

Guten Tag, Cailon (Ich habe Deutsch gelernt, aber ich habe alle vergessen )
I agree with you about the end of Abyss (but be careful, you are talking about the end of the "director's cut" version), it's completely "cheesy", I was really disappointed when I saw it... I mean, compared to the end of Terminator 1 and 2...

And I understand the fact that you are afraid about the BAA movie, but it could be worst... Well, I prefer a BAA movie made by James Cameron (which has already made very good movies) rather than made by Michael Bay...

@Int 29Ah

Okay, I'm sorry, it is sometimes difficult, when you read a forum, to distinguish the joke and the seriousness...

Guten Tag, Cailon (Ich habe Deutsch gelernt, aber ich habe alle vergessen )

You can still form a sentence! I have forgotten nearly all of my french I learned in school :-/ Its stupid, you learn it 5 years and then you just forget it again because you don't use it.
At least, you french people have what it takes to conquer the world: the french accent. Hearing Frenchmen speaking e.g. german or english, as slight as their accent might be, is so cool, really!

And I understand the fact that you are afraid about the BAA movie, but it could be worst... Well, I prefer a BAA movie made by James Cameron (which has already made very good movies) rather than made by Michael Bay...

Very true. So you mean we should go with the lesser evil. I might get used to this thought.. considering that we can't decide anything there, anyway

Int 29Ah wrote: PS.
I don't have anything against JC.
The only thing I'm trying to say is that the BAA movie SHOULDN'T be made no matter by WHOM, EVER!

Dont worry, BAA will never be made because BAA doesnt exist, only GUNNM and GUNNM LO exist...

PD.: What stuff is Alita? [Mod irony OFF]

Dharko wrote:

Int 29Ah wrote: PS.
I don't have anything against JC.
The only thing I'm trying to say is that the BAA movie SHOULDN'T be made no matter by WHOM, EVER!

Dont worry, BAA will never be made because BAA doesnt exist, only GUNNM and GUNNM LO exist...

PD.: What stuff is Alita? [Mod irony OFF]

As I say in the glossary, Alita is the Arabic name for the goddess Venus. Thus, the American translations committed a criminal absurd, as they even changed (I don't give a shit if it was not intentionally) the citizenship, once the main character in Gunnm is Martian.

Sergio wrote: As I say in the glossary, Alita is the Arabic name for the goddess Venus.

I don't think the translators knew it when they invented a name. I think that they just picked up a random name.
However, if you insist that it has some reference, you can think about a movie called "Aelita: Queen of Mars", maybe this is why they've chosen this name.

PS.
Building ANY theories about it is only a speculation.

Int 29Ah wrote:

Sergio wrote: However, if you insist that it has some reference, you can think about a movie called "Aelita: Queen of Mars", maybe this is why they've chosen this name.

PS.
Building ANY theories about it is only a speculation.

I have NEVER said there is some reference. I just insist that inventing translations may end up dangerously, especially in a work where the characters' names are meticulously chosen.

As to the film, I have read about it here, but I have never seen.

Sergio wrote:As to the film, I have read about it here, but I have never seen.

I haven't seen it either.

By the way, when searching IMDB about this movie, I've accidentially found this.
So, this name isn't completely made up after all.

I was unable to understand your association (supposing it is an association).

The thought was like this:

1) I thought that the name "Alita" was completely made up by the translators, just some unrealistic name.
2) I've accidentially found someone called the same (in fact, there are lots of them on IMDB).
3) I've supposed that it is a more-or-less real name, which is not completely made up.

Cailon wrote:You can still form a sentence! I have forgotten nearly all of my french I learned in school :-/ Its stupid, you learn it 5 years and then you just forget it again because you don't use it.
At least, you french people have what it takes to conquer the world: the french accent. Hearing Frenchmen speaking e.g. german or english, as slight as their accent might be, is so cool, really!

heu... French accent, cool ? Well, it sounds perhaps cool, but when you learn French, you don't find the grammar and the conjugation so cool ^^ Believe me, even in France, a lot of French people are not able to speak french correctly (even not fluently), specially the teenagers (and believe me, hearing some french teenagers speaking "french" is simply awful)
Talking about languages, I love hearing japanese, german and russian. A lot of people in France seem to think that german is a harsh language, blabla, and spanish is soooooo cool, blabla... F*ck them. At least German is a logical and well structured language (or seems to be, since I do not speak German fluently)

The strange thing is that, right now, I am in the north of Norway for an Erasmus university year. And I meet a LOT of international students : Russians, Germans, Spanish, Polish, Americans... even 2 Japanese (nice) guys ! Well, I have shown them the scan of the chapter 93, when Sechs is saying the stupid thing and everybody laugh about him, and they have translated for me... I hope they would teach me some Japanese, but don't expect me to help for the translation in few weeks And it is quite funny when they try to speak french, particularly for pronouncing the sound "r"

Cailon wrote:Very true. So you mean we should go with the lesser evil. I might get used to this thought.. considering that we can't decide anything there, anyway

Seriously, do you imagine a Battle Angel Alita movie made by Michael Bay ?
First, forget about a strong and courageous Alita : Ido (renamed with an American name, let say Steven Johnson, played by Ben Affleck) will be the hero, and Alita (played by Megan Fox) will be the weak-and-of-course-hot-girl-to-save-at-the-end.
Second, put explosions. Everywhere. A festival of CGI porn. And stupid action sequences every 10 minutes. And completely silly dialogs.

This was Gunnm by Michael Bay.

So I definitely prefer a nice "by the director of Terminator, Terminator 2, Aliens, Abyss, Titanic and Avatar" rather than "by the director of Bad Boys, Bad Boys 2, Armageddon, Pearl Harbor, Transformers and Transformers 2"

DDTL wrote:
heu... French accent, cool ? Well, it sounds perhaps cool, but when you learn French, you don't find the grammar and the conjugation so cool ^^ Believe me, even in France, a lot of French people are not able to speak french correctly (even not fluently), specially the teenagers (and believe me, hearing some french teenagers speaking "french" is simply awful)

Since Plato it is very common for older people to criticize young people. They simply forget that young ones were educated by…

DDTL wrote: A lot of people in France seem to think that german is a harsh language, blabla, and spanish is soooooo cool, blabla... F*ck them. At least German is a logical and well structured language (or seems to be, since I do not speak German fluently)

Who said that must be deaf. Spanish speakers are proud to say that their language has only five vowels (phonetically saying). How can a language sound "cool" with only five vowels?

It is true that German is well structured and logical (even because it is the philosophers' preferred language), but the sound is a jab in the ears.

Sergio wrote:Spanish speakers are proud to say that their language has only five vowels (phonetically saying). How can a language sound "cool" with only five vowels?

I didn't know that, Sergio, thank you. You've made me proud to have 10 of them in my language.

In fact, there is even a vowel/sound, which makes a foreigner's brain boil when he tries to reproduce it, just because European languages don't have anything similar (or just I don't know about it).

This sound is "Ы", which doesn't even have a phonetic equivalent combination in the english language, so I won't write any transcription for it. I'll try to explain it to you as an extremely hard and sharp pronounced "Y".
In written speech (transliteration from Russian into English) it's usually substituted by "Y" letter, but it's not the same, it isn't even close.

Today the new episode has aired, and I'm impressed.

There is a huge parody on the Avatar trailers in the new episode. Download the episode, it's worth it.

Here are some screens I've taken:





At the last one Cartman shouts "Fuck you, James Cameron!" and shows "fuck".


PS.
If the BAA movie will ever be made, it surely will appear in the SP, which will be unbearable. That's one more reason why this movie shouldn't be made.

Amm, a language with 10 vowels... to say and express the same things that the spanish language says with only 5 vowels... congrats

¿functionality v/s "coolism"? = I prefer functionality... and less vowels

Dharko wrote:Amm, a language with 10 vowels... to say and express the same things that the spanish language says with only 5 vowels... congrats

¿functionality v/s "coolism"? = I prefer functionality... and less vowels

Excuse me, but you are mistaken. The elegance of a language is dictated by its phonetics. In English, for example, you have eight vowels and twelve diphthongs. In Portuguese, there are twelve wowels and seventeen diphthongs. Because of that, Spanish speakers are unable to differenciate Portuguese words like poço and posso, cacete and cassete, to say the least. Because of that, singers like Julio Iglesias swear that they are singing in Portuguese, but Portuguese speakers simply cannot understand his Portuguese (No! This is not a joke!! It is the explicit reality!). Of course, I have to remember that the king Juan Carlos has a perfect Portuguese, as well as Shakira. But the fact is: they are exceptions.