^Ripper's Anime Page

As translator you have to keep many things in mind. And too literal translations of fiction are by far the worst

The time they began with translating Gunnm the people were not used to Japan lifestyle or soundings of words. And so they had to transform some names to conserve corresponding feelings to them. The sound of a name can shift the picture you make in your mind very much. So, a good translator tries to keep as much as possible and changes when its necessary to keep the same intention. Therefore its a hard job and cannot be done to satisfy everybody. The same big problem with translating plays of words . To conserve the intention the translator has to change very often! And when done well it only proves big respect towards the original author.

I think in the first years they tried to Americanize mangas to much. And I'm pretty sure the names would be different if the series would be started today

(Translating text from law or science for sure is pretty different but we are at fiction)

spacey wrote:As translator you have to keep many things in mind. And too literal translations of fiction are by far the worst

The sound of a name can shift the picture you make in your mind very much. So, a good translator tries to keep as much as possible and changes when its necessary to keep the same intention. Therefore its a hard job and cannot be done to satisfy everybody. The same big problem with translating plays of words . To conserve the intention the translator has to change very often! And when done well it only proves big respect towards the original author.

(Translating text from law or science for sure is pretty different but we are at fiction)

Initially, I agree with you, but the problem here is not a difficult word play. The original names are Jeru and Salem. The translator invented Ketheres and Tiphares. That is what I meant when I said that he wanted to be more creative than the original creator.

TankTreads wrote:The Jefferson National Expansion Memorial in St. Louis, Missouri. About 240 miles East of Kansas. Was Vilma's body transported there, or was Star City really built on St. Louis rather than Kansas? The mystery deepens.

If you do not mind, I will be including this information in the next version of the glossary.

There are country in which translators have no choice but to completely rape original text to fit the complaining of some idiotic "pro-censorship" association.

For istances, here, in Italy we have the "MoIGe" Movimento Italiano Genitori, that sounds like "Italian Parents Movement" and it's somethink like the "Mothers Against Canada" of the "South Park the Movie".

Talking with a professional translator of one of our major tv channel on a train vojage back from a convention it came out that due to the MoIGe complaining with autority they have to censore Anime or give them after 11.00 PM whici is a gap of audience they don't care of.

So we have Dragonball episodes with no scene in wich Kame Muten looks at boobs, intercourses translated as "friendships", dead characters quoted as "went away" and so on

Luckily printed manga and DVDs have more freedom

Anyway, thanks God, i can deal with english

MrFaber wrote:There are country in which translators have no choice but to completely rape original text to fit the complaining of some idiotic "pro-censorship" association.

For istances, here, in Italy we have the "MoIGe" Movimento Italiano Genitori, that sounds like "Italian Parents Movement" and it's somethink like the "Mothers Against Canada" of the "South Park the Movie".

Talking with a professional translator of one of our major tv channel on a train vojage back from a convention it came out that due to the MoIGe complaining with autority they have to censore Anime or give them after 11.00 PM whici is a gap of audience they don't care of.

So we have Dragonball episodes with no scene in wich Kame Muten looks at boobs, intercourses translated as "friendships", dead characters quoted as "went away" and so on

Luckily printed manga and DVDs have more freedom

Anyway, thanks God, i can deal with english

And you even use smiles to identify cultural crimes?
I do not know if you deserve congratulations or condemnation.

Eh, censorship is as old as the world but since there is censorship there are people and means smart enough to get around it, the other people just have to move ass a bit and get smarter

Sergio wrote:If you do not mind, I will be including this information in the next version of the glossary.

I don't mind. Your glossary is an excellent source of information!

The American translator Fred Burke actually spoke to why he made those translations:

The literal translation I was working with used "Salem." For me, that already had all sorts of connotations for Americans -- witch trials, etc. So I had to come up with something else. (Seriously -- this *is* how it works, folks. The object is to make the reading experience as unobtrusive to American readers as it is to Japanese readers. Would Alita fall in love with a cheap and tiny compact car? I think not!)

A strange series of synchronous thoughts led me to "Tiphares":

[see chart at source below]

I'll leave you to guess at the actual content of my free-floating associations -- but, obviously, this was before the Jeru/Salem stuff ever hit the page in Japan. (Oh, the choice of Tiphares over Tiphareth was for sound quality).

More here: http://www.reimeika.ca/marco/gfaq.html#Q15

I am not defending him, but at that time people thought no one would read manga unless it was "Americanized." Who knows - maybe they were right? Now that American audiences have gotten more sophisticated/tolerant they can keep manga closer to the author's original intent.

In Thai, They are translated in to Jeru and Salem ^^

I must admit i would have prefered that Alita kept the name Gally.

lyssla wrote:The American translator Fred Burke actually spoke to why he made those translations:

Excuse me, lyssla, but do you really accept such an absurd explanation?

Alita is fine too (c)

Sergio wrote:

lyssla wrote:The American translator Fred Burke actually spoke to why he made those translations:

Excuse me, lyssla, but do you really accept such an absurd explanation?

What is so absurd about it?

denzacar wrote: What is so absurd about it?

It is that simple: he explains why instead of using the name the original author had given he preferred to invent something completely alien. If you consider that acceptable…

In my opinion the change made to Jeru & Salem is reasonable, if you take into account that Viz translation started in the last century, the mid 90's. Back then people weren't as open minded about religion related themes in entertainment. Even today they continue to be pretty close minded, like the church calling Harry Potter a bad influence and drawing kids into witchcraft? Don't even mention the reaction IF this stuff were published in the 70's or 80's.

Another clear example of name changing because of religious reasons. Back in the 70's when the pen&paper RPG Dungeons & Dragons was published, it was criticized by the church because of incidents with kids suicides and including Demons & Devils in their repertoire of monsters. They changed Demons & Devils names to Tanar'ri and Baatezu, and were kept for more than 20 years. They changed back to demons & devils when they published the 3rd edition in october 2000! And there are many other examples of self-censorship you can find in the 80's & 90's.

Things that may sound so dumb today, might have been the right thing or a good idea in their own time. One thing is being critical of stuff, specially decisions made in the past with different mentality than we have now in the 21st century, but another is making a witch hunt out of it.

Kamui04, you should have given the name to the cows.
Which "church" are you talking about? The Catholic?
If the Catholic Church demands were taken into cnsideration, there would be no divorce on this planet, pornography would still be forbidden and abortion would be fiction.

And what about capital punishment? As far as I know, Protestant countries never gave a shit to Catholic postulates and always had that sort of "justice" (I daresay that I agree entirely with Catholics: capital punishment is not Christian and it is not civilized).

Anyway, the usage of Jeru and Salem in the story is far from being offensive, so there is no reason to be worried about reaction from the Church.

Salem is connected with an US American trauma: In this city in Massachusetts they conducted cruel burnings of so-called witches. THIS is the problem with the name 'Salem' the VIZ translator is talking about. Nobody in USA has a problem with Jerusalem. And when Salem originally was isolated from the other name 'Jeru' it was impossible for him to see the play of words with 'Jerusalem'. In his explanation I can read an apologize about the problem. So, where is the problem with his explanation?

EDIT: Your personal opinion regarding the catholic church has nothing to do with the intentions of the translator. When he would live in an catholic dominated country (which the USA is not! Probably if you say Christianity - yes there are differences). YOUR opinion about this religion cannot help him to translate

The non-use in Viz of zalem was a question of religion ? great censure in the self-called liberty country ! lol I've noticed the church lobby is very powerfull in the USA, in particular in the child and teenage literature and movie (just watch a wald disney movie ! even if I like them)...
I have the chance to live in a laic country, where we can read GLO (and not BAA lol), with Gally (Alita), Jeru, Zalem... where the theory of darwin is not recounsidering in education, despite the recent speech of our "dear" president "Napoleon Sarkozy" grrrr
I daresay : "Yes" for the diferences of cultures, religion, point of view, "No" to people who act to influence our mind !
Honestly, If I was an autor, I would refuse any change of this kind !
oops, am I out of the subject ? lol

lyssla wrote:The American translator Fred Burke actually spoke to why he made those translations:

The literal translation I was working with used "Salem." For me, that already had all sorts of connotations for Americans -- witch trials, etc. So I had to come up with something else. (Seriously -- this *is* how it works, folks. The object is to make the reading experience as unobtrusive to American readers as it is to Japanese readers. Would Alita fall in love with a cheap and tiny compact car? I think not!)

A strange series of synchronous thoughts led me to "Tiphares":

[see chart at source below]

Anybody who is able to read can see there are NO religious reasons mentioned by the translator. He specifically speaks about the witch trials (see above). These trauma is deep-rooted in American minds. I could remember this connection even as German.

Some informations about this stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

Sorry to get a bit harsh

Thus far, all I'm hearing is the honking of fans who are experiencing cognitive dissonance because the official translation of their favorite comic isn't the same as the fan translation...?

Why complain about non-issues? The translation quirks obviously aren't significant enough to ruin your enjoyment of BAA/LastOrder, they've been explained and rationalized, and you're not about to stop reading because you didn't like the explanation.

Now, let's all get back to focusing on the real issue: why haven't I seen Alita-catgirl doujin yet?

Well, maybe we are tipical nerdish purist

But i prefere when a narrative product is exactly the way it was meant to be

Spacey, I simply do not intend to seem intolerable.
I do understand the American trauma, but we should consider that nobody in the US, as far as I know, lived the experiences. That is history, simply. And I daresay there are worst episodes in history, as Nazism, Inquisition, slavery and God knows what else.

Despite that, Germans do not try to deny history, Catholics do not try to deny history, whites do not try to deny history. Why people who are completely innocent in history and in present (at least, as far as I understand) are to "avoid" that?

Anyway, you should remember that Gunnm is NOT an American story.
And, no, I did not say may opinion about the Catholicism. From my text, you cannot, excuse me, say if I defend or attack them. I simply said that their postulates are not so strong as many people like to say.

renaming based on some cultural sensitivity to the salem witch trials seems a bit tenuous. who knows all the reasons why the translators did what they did, but we definitely lose something as a result.

there's another layer here with the name splitting into "jeru" and "salem," i.e. jerusalem as the contested locale for two populations in the israeli-palestinian conflict. even the physical locations of jeru and salem in yk's narrative gesture toward the problematic hierarchy, mirroring the problem in the middle east. seems more likely that this is the controversy the translator is trying to avoid, rather than some historical trauma over 300 ago.

nevertheless, themes of occupation/exploitation, the struggle for sovereignty, etc, are all underscored in the ascension of alita's group into space. note in particular the discussions about the tipharean secret, and what it means to be human, what treatment is afforded post-chipped individuals, the status of their "citizenship," as well as the related acknowledgement and treatment of individuals in the scrapyard.

it's possible to see that zott, for alita, is about precisely that right to self-determination and recognition/independence, as opposed to zekka's unfortunate "war of aggression" or preserving the (ladder's) status quo of splintered populations subjugating one another.

the translator largely dampens the significance of all this in his misguided substitutions. in my opinion, these choices cannot be about sensitivity or 'readability,' and certainly not at the expense of the translator's primary obligation: fidelity to original text, and the integrity of that message.

spamlet2002 wrote:renaming based on some cultural sensitivity to the salem witch trials seems a bit tenuous. who knows all the reasons why the translators did what they did, but we definitely lose something as a result.

there's another layer here with the name splitting into "jeru" and "salem," i.e. jerusalem as the contested locale for two populations in the israeli-palestinian conflict. even the physical locations of jeru and salem in yk's narrative gesture toward the problematic hierarchy, mirroring the problem in the middle east. seems more likely that this is the controversy the translator is trying to avoid, rather than some historical trauma over 300 ago.

nevertheless, themes of occupation/exploitation, the struggle for sovereignty, etc, are all underscored in the ascension of alita's group into space. note in particular the discussions about the tipharean secret, and what it means to be human, what treatment is afforded post-chipped individuals, the status of their "citizenship," as well as the related acknowledgement and treatment of individuals in the scrapyard.

it's possible to see that zott, for alita, is about precisely that right to self-determination and recognition/independence, as opposed to zekka's unfortunate "war of aggression" or preserving the (ladder's) status quo of splintered populations subjugating one another.

the translator largely dampens the significance of all this in his misguided substitutions. in my opinion, these choices cannot be about sensitivity or 'readability,' and certainly not at the expense of the translator's primary obligation: fidelity to original text, and the integrity of that message.

Finally someone who can understand the obvious.
Thanks for your comments.

Sergio wrote: Finally someone who can understand the obvious.
Thanks for your comments.

sometimes what's obvious has a way of behaving like the purloined letter, but yeah, i take your point, and i'm glad to contribute.