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But the Jeru-salem in Gunnm as nothing to do with the real city and even less to do with its history. Censorship based on what people would think instead of what it's really about is the worst kind of censoship ever.
Also I can't even understand how just "Salem" as in the witch trials thing is really a problem in an adult oriented manga. It's pop culture now, and is parodied in even the most kiddy stuff. I mean, If Sabrina the teenage with can have a cat called like this, don't see why a post apocalyptic story featuring cyborgs and martial art can't use it. It doesnt make sense.

It is not supposed to make sense.
As a translator myself, I have seen such things lots of times: many translators want to be more "creative" than the original authors. That happens everywhere in the world. I have always told my colleagues that I do like to be creative, but in such cases I prefer to create my own pieces instead of interfering in someone else's work.

Dream wrote:But the Jeru-salem in Gunnm as nothing to do with the real city and even less to do with its history.

did you even read the post? i've already provided an argument for the parallels between the current situation in the middle east, the struggle between two populations over holy land (jerusalem), and the ascension arc in gunnm (plight of tipharean citizens and other inhabitants).

while jerusalem is the capital of israel, arab palestinians also view/want (eastern) jerusalem as the capital of their future state. if you can recognize the fact that jerusalem is a contested site (claimed by both populations), then surely you can appreciate the significance of yk naming different locations jeru and salem, gesturing toward divided sites/populace, themes of subjugation, genocide, occupation, etc, clearly present in yk's narrative.

Dream wrote:But the Jeru-salem in Gunnm as nothing to do with the real city and even less to do with its history.

nothing, huh? lol, with all due respect, you can reconsider this or not, but following the explication above, the narrative elements suggested by name splitting (jeru-salem) would seem to parallel the political strife in the real city of jerusalem, its modern history, and the plight of its inhabitants (classes of personhood, contingent citizenship, consequences of such practices). then you have mutually exiled groups in tiphares, etc. not surprising if one makes us think of the other.

Dream wrote:Also I can't even understand how just "Salem" as in the witch trials thing is really a problem in an adult oriented manga. It's pop culture now, and is parodied in even the most kiddy stuff. I mean, If Sabrina the teenage with can have a cat called like this, don't see why a post apocalyptic story featuring cyborgs and martial art can't use it. It doesnt make sense.

it's only a problem if you accept the translator's rationale. most would agree that salem as a witch burning reference isn't a big issue, which is what makes the translator's reasoning for changing the original name dubious.

point being: if the translator preserves yk's naming, then we can discuss anything referencing "salem," including the significance of the salem hunts for 'chipped'/initiated adults and the potential links between subjugated sites/poplations in gunnm, and the situation in contemporary jerusalem). changing the name to tiphares makes "salem" references more difficult to detect, thus making both discussions more difficult to have. so if you're into the witch angle, then booooo translator, lol.

nothing, huh? lol, with all due respect, you can reconsider this or not, but following the explication above, the narrative elements suggested by name splitting (jeru-salem) would seem to parallel the political strife in the real city of jerusalem, its modern history, and the plight of its inhabitants (classes of personhood, contingent citizenship, consequences of such practices). then you have mutually exiled groups in tiphares, etc. not surprising if one makes us think of the other.

But it's not. It's just an interpretation. It's has nothing to do with the story or the author will. The interpretation you give is purely subjective.

Dream wrote:

But it's not. It's just an interpretation.

sigh. do you think the story is strictly and exclusively about a group of cyborgs who go to space? isn't the glossary full of examples suggesting that yk is aware of historical events and even influenced by our cultural milieu? isn't it possible that in addition to telling a story, elements of his work are being used to comment upon--if not outright informed by--philosophical/political/ethical matters outside the story?

of course it's an interpretation--there is no reading of a text that is not an interpretation. further, interpretations are not all subjective in the same way. can you see that the idea that all interpretations are somehow equally convincing or equally legitimate simply isn't credible?

The interpretation you give is purely subjective.

wrong. my interpretation is not, as you say, "purely subjective." instead, what i suggested is an interpretation with a coherent argument, supported by facts from history and textual evidence from yk's work. that's what makes certain interpretations more convincing/compelling than others. interpretations aren't all uniformly viable, nor do they all go the way of "he said, she said." there are criteria for evaluating the relative merit of various interpretations, right? that's the difference between "pure" intuition/opinion and actual textual analysis in support of claims.

look at it this way, let's say my interpretation has the same textual support as the interpretation that "salem" is a reference to witch trials. so if someone proposed that "salem" is a reference to the brand of cigarettes, would you find all three interpretations equally plausible and "purely subjective" in the same way? surely there's a rationale for not including the cigarette reference in the gunnm glossary.

It's has nothing to do with the story or the author will.

authoritative or subjective: those aren't absolute categories, nor are they the only options. moreover, how in the world are you (absolutely) privy to the author's motivations, will, or intent? all of which are subject to revision by the author, i.e. an author is always (re)interpreting his "original" intent.

and most significantly, you do realize that yk has deployed allegory before, right?

look, i'm actually trying to help you see something, or help you entertain some new thoughts here. if any of this strikes you as food for thought, i'd recommend a very short volume by terry eagleton called literary theory, which is a concise and accessible introduction to the methods/practice of interpreting and exploring cultural texts (including literature, art, film, manga, etc). it's been widely translated and should be easily available. you may find that it enriches your enjoyment/engagement with all manner of cultural/literary/artistic production.

but if nothing i've said strikes a chord, then by all means, godspeed, i fully support your right to remain unpersuaded, lol

Damn, I missed an epic thread, screw me!

I just want to say one thing, Gunnm is the work of a life without any doubt, you can see it by all the ideas and time Kishiro-sama put into it. He won't screw up this thing, its almost certain.

And as his dedicated fans there is only one thing we have to do, "cheer him up" lol (I'm was close to cry when I read the last paragraph of his memo about GLO, I just wish he will have along life.)

BeastSoulEyes wrote:I'm was close to cry when I read the last paragraph of his memo about GLO, I just wish he will have along life.

What are you talking about?

Well not sure either ...could you give us a reference?
And I was there to discuss views on Erica and Gerda... it seems the thread has gone mad not unlike Melchizedek... Can someone please bring us the Fata morganna?

I was there to discuss views on Erica and Gerda.

please do!

sorry if you feel thwarted, lol. feel free to rekindle the discussion by venturing some thoughts.

Thanks
feels a bit out of touch though
my hypothesis is that Erica must be an awfully powerful kunstler based on volume 7.
According to tsai (tzykrow) Alita was only included in the Kammer grupe because she followed Erica everywhere.
He calls her a useless piece of trash, which means that the Kammer Grupe had to want Erica very bad, to be ready to include Yoko in their ranks as well.
So her strength must have made up for the liability of dragging yoko around, and going through the pain of training her.
Moreover it is Yoko, a gezele, someone disposable, who has been sent for operation Maulwurf.
So I suppose Erica must have been at least an Adept to benefit from so much attention. Not the kind of person you can afford to lose, even in a crucial operation like Maulwurf, or to anger.

Disposable?
I do not think so!
Yoko was used to running after Erica everywhere, that is true, but Tzykrow made clear that she was also Gerda's protégée. Do you think Gerda would protect her simply because the girl was an orphan? I realize that every child in Grüntal would not have family.

you are right, but in a context of civil war, a side may pick up orphaned children to increase its ranks. realizing that may be why Yoko feels dejected when she's talking to Alita during the interior monologue.

This may not be How Gerda saw it , but tzykrow saw her like trash, and others in the Kammer grupe may have shared his view, this may be why they may have accepted Yoko for the mission. She was the best choice to make out of respect for Gerda but also because she was only a gezele.

Now why should Gerda recommend her for the mission? Grunthal being a society of warriors assigning a mission to Yoko may be seen as an honnour.

By the way it seems that the French edition got it wrong(wouldn't be the first time...) in the French edition it is not Gerda who recommends Yoko for the mission but a certain "Gelukt". is there something like that in another edition?

litchi master wrote:By the way it seems that the French edition got it wrong(wouldn't be the first time...) in the French edition it is not Gerda who recommends Yoko for the mission but a certain "Gelukt". is there something like that in another edition?

Gelukt? No, I have never seen that. But it seems that Gerda has suffered a lot in the hands of translators. In Last Order volume 1, page 75 (Viz's edition) a certain Layla is announced, and then Gerda is shown (or I have misunderstood everything).

When I remember Gerda falling from the double-satellited sky to save Erica and Yoko, exterminating the mercenaries, I cannot help thinking that the translators should be more careful. It does not seem too intelligent to infuriate such a powerful warrior.

Just one more thing about Jeru and Salem ...


Found this on wiki

Melchizedek is an enigmatic figure twice mentioned in the Hebrew Bible, also known as the Old Testament. Melchizedek seems to be the King of Salem, and priest of the Most High, in the time of the biblical patriarch Abram. He brought out bread and wine, blessed Abram, and received tithes from him (Gen. xiv. 18-20). Reference is made to him in Psalm 110:4 where the victorious ruler is declared to be "priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

@thorben: Thanks! That would be another evidence, that Kishoro meant something with these names and didn't just choose them randomly so that they could be replaced easily with Tiphares and Ketheres.
I also wonder, if the reference of Jeru-Zalem was too obvious for them? Did VIZ try to make it more mystical? Because on the one hand they chanced the names but on the other hand, they stayed in the jewish tradition.

@litchi master: Gelukt, lol, thats funny! I mean thats not even a bit of a name. Hi Gelukt, how are you? I'm fine, how are you Ap§ßollt?-- or what?? But we already saw other sins by the french editors here^^
Layla, that could be anoher try of making the names more american-like. Like with Gally vs. Alita. (which is, by the way the most unbelievable change, the name of the main character!)

@Erica and Gerda: In a way I like the theory of Alita as a mere tadpole and such as a dispensable figure. But on th other hand, with her being captured, the whole operation failed and Mars was thrown into war, so there was depending very much on this mission. Kammer Gruppe wouldn't had used an unskillful warrior for this. Or maybe they thought, Alita could actually do it but since the mission was considered as a one way ticket, they send her, not their best warroir.

thorben wrote:Just one more thing about Jeru and Salem ...


Found this on wiki

Melchizedek is an enigmatic figure twice mentioned in the Hebrew Bible, also known as the Old Testament. Melchizedek seems to be the King of Salem, and priest of the Most High, in the time of the biblical patriarch Abram. He brought out bread and wine, blessed Abram, and received tithes from him (Gen. xiv. 18-20). Reference is made to him in Psalm 110:4 where the victorious ruler is declared to be "priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

Melchizedek king of Salem?
You are at least two years late, as that has all this time benn available in the glossary.

Sergio wrote:

BeastSoulEyes wrote:I'm was close to cry when I read the last paragraph of his memo about GLO, I just wish he will have along life.

What are you talking about?

I was talking about the memo yk wrote about why he started his work on GLO and stopped Aqua Knight, and I was also emo for once in a while, shit happens. But yea I was clearly offtopic.

edit: I was also referencing the fact that he had some medical problems in the past, this is why I wish that he will have a long life, as long has he don't get sick and GLO sell enough he won't stop it and hopefully we will be able to see a real ending to this serie, with Mars, Gelda and Erika.

Cailon wrote:@thorben: Thanks! That would be another evidence, that Kishoro meant something with these names and didn't just choose them randomly so that they could be replaced easily with Tiphares and Ketheres.
I also wonder, if the reference of Jeru-Zalem was too obvious for them? Did VIZ try to make it more mystical? Because on the one hand they chanced the names but on the other hand, they stayed in the jewish tradition.

@litchi master: Gelukt, lol, thats funny! I mean thats not even a bit of a name. Hi Gelukt, how are you? I'm fine, how are you Ap§ßollt?-- or what?? But we already saw other sins by the french editors here^^
Layla, that could be anoher try of making the names more american-like. Like with Gally vs. Alita. (which is, by the way the most unbelievable change, the name of the main character!)

@Erica and Gerda: In a way I like the theory of Alita as a mere tadpole and such as a dispensable figure. But on th other hand, with her being captured, the whole operation failed and Mars was thrown into war, so there was depending very much on this mission. Kammer Gruppe wouldn't had used an unskillful warrior for this. Or maybe they thought, Alita could actually do it but since the mission was considered as a one way ticket, they send her, not their best warroir.

As all "spartan" societies ther weak will always be thrown away and die a horrible death, but what truly itches me is that since Erica was an Adept or higher in the ranks due to Gerda's secret training do you think Erica's skills would of landed her as the survivor, but also in one of the liberation groups against the MKP and Gerda as the hermit Zaez found, but thats my two cents even though it is a bit of a cliche in that kind of thinking, but a twisted and good idea for bending the loyalties of Gally and her befriending of the Queen of the Mars Kingdom Parliament.

I think that given maulwurf operation was orchestrated by the jovian secret services the Kammer gruppe must have had access to the best intelligence possible, so the we may suppose that the operation was carefully planned.
They must have known that the security was no match for even an average Kuntsler(the martial arts only evolved after the destruction of Grunthal), which proved to be right...until Caerula unexpectedly showed up.
So that means that the risks were perfectly calculated, and the mission didn't have to be a way ticket but the kunstler was to blow his/her head off if something bad should happen, it was better to send someone disposable. This may be why yoko was chosen for the mission.

Now concerning Erica, I also think that she is one of the survivors, it would be more interesting in in terms of story telling to have someone who actually knew Alita when she was yoko. Now as to what her role would be i have different ideas.
the first one is that the Jovian secret services recruited certain surviving members of the Kammer gruppe and use them as secret weapons for black ops or to turn the tide of a battle on the Martian soil.
Or after the treason of Jupiter, the latter began to chase down the survivors lest they disclosed the truth about operation maulwurf.

Still say Gerda is the hermit where Grunthal was and Erica is the absorbed Kammer gruppe where there will be a nice neutral balance for Yoko's return to mars with Gerda and a bloody vengence from Erica who maybe able to par with Gally despite the new body due to Yoko's psychology of Erica always being better than her. Kinda like if you pissed off your parents and your 3x their size and stronger and they're still able to bring you to submission with a hard slap its because of having that old psychology of them being giants to you during your childhood days.

Thx you Freud and volume two of Aqua Knight.

yes this is the most likely hypothethis. Unless of course, one of them is dead, or both.
However Erica and Gerda must have benefitted from a Jovian experimental version of it that was not made public, if tzykrow has why shouldn't they?As I see things Erica may become the Alita's principal antagonist on Mars, so I totally agree with the psychological advantage that any of them may have on yoko in case there should be a confrontation.

By the way, Erica and Gerda are not the only Martian characters we have seen so far and I'd be glad to know more about Alita's other master, that we have seen in Gunnm volume 3, as he is the one who taught her the gehaiminis.(a very rare technique and I am curious to know how she came to master that)
And the Menshell guy too, do we have any info about him?origin of the name etc?