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I'm orthodoxal atheist. I don't beleive in god, satan, or enything like this, only in science. That was true even before I've first read gunnm. About bible I know only bits and pieces, but I can suppose that gunnm is a new age bible and Alita a messiah of some sort.

1) It consists of 2 parts: BAA and GLO
2) It shows us extreme personal growth
3) It's really really epic.
4) It has lots of phylosophy, cross-references and hints inside, so we're even proposing different theories about it (f.e. Isidorios's theory)
5) Like every masterpiece, it's cherished really really hard.
6) It has influenced our lives like nothing else.

And GLO it's not finished yet... maybe we're witnessing a birth of a new prophecy? Like Jules Verne?


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!!! A really smoked up post.

That is the stupidest joke I have ever read.

Sergio wrote:That is the stupidest joke I have ever read.

Why? I'm serious. Hasn't it changed your world view?

I love BAA for what it is, but this thread is ridicolous.

So far.

Int 29Ah wrote:

Sergio wrote:That is the stupidest joke I have ever read.

Why? I'm serious. Hasn't it changed your world view?

No, it has not. Alt least, not the way you have put it.
I am not an Orthodox, but I have nevert understood the need some people have to attack religions gratuitously. The expression orthodoxal atheist is a completely unnecessary lack of respect.

No it has not. Alt least, not the way you have put it.

The expression orthodoxal atheist is a completely unnecessary lack of respect.

To make a confusion clear:
1) By "It" I meant not my post. I meant "gunnm". I've asked if gunnm has changed your world view. Everyone here sure have re-read it lots of times. It also may have broken some points of view on life. It sure has changed mine.

2) I'm not attacking any religion or disrespecting your religious feelings. I've just stated my own general attitude to it. No offence.

Int 29Ah wrote:By "It" I meant not my post. I meant "gunnm". I've asked if gunnm has changed your world view. Everyone here sure have re-read it lots of times. It also may have broken some points of view on life. It sure has changed mine.

I understood your question perfectly. Gunnm is a great work of literature, containing many aspects of human culture in general terms, but it has NOT changed my world view. It is leisure, it is neither the Bible nor the Koran. It is not the Damapada either.

As a matter of fact, I have already ready the Bible and the Bhagavad Gita, as well as many parts of the Koran. I am curious by nature. You could not offend my religious beliefs because I do not have a religion, simply. I just insist that every group deserves respect. That includes the religious groups as well.

To say that these sacred books have changed my world view would be an exaggeration, They have influenced my eduacation, certainly, but many books have.

By the way, although I am not affiliated to a religious group, I am not an atheist. I certainly respect your right to be one, but I do believe that religious people have the right to be affiliated, if that is what they believe. Anyway, there is a God somewhere. I simply cannot say what He is doing exactly - and, no, I do not know who He is. There are too many priests affirming different things.

A science fiction Bible? I for one can't agree with the idea that "memory" is the essence of humans. It's really interesting to think about, but I don't think we will ever be able to replace human brains with computer chips. It would be interesting to see how much of Kishiro's beliefs are mixed in, and how much of it is fantasy.

I'm also not an atheist, but I don't associate with any religion.

I'm also not a follower of one of the big religions. I don't think there is a God or something, its just us. But I do understand that sometimes it feels better to believe that there is someone "watching over us" (whoever it may be).
Also, I respect the belief itself, but most institutionalized religions are just ridiculous if you look at their history. God is only a derivative of Jahwe and Jahwe is probably a derivative of Aton, which was the only god under the reign of Akhenaten. Aton is, like the roman Helios the Sun, which Constantine I. equalized with the God of christianity. Some old men decided which texts went into the bible and which were discarded. So I can't believe in a true god, nor that he speaks through a "holy text". I'm not very firm with other big religions like buddhism but I for myself like the shintoism way, that there is a spirit or a god in everything. It makes you feel respect for nature and life.

Besides, with all the unbelivable crimes the christian church has commited, I could never support them by cheering to the Ratzinger-pope or pay church-taxes. Why can't they believe for themselfes, why do they need an institution? Tolerance towards them, yes, to a certain level. My tolerance certainly ends, when teachers are forced to teach the kids, that Darwin was wrong and that mankind along with the dinosaurs, came out of thin air, 10.000 years ago. They do not tolerate science, either.


@topic: BAA hasn't changed my life but lets say I read it several times and in some times on another level as in other times. It depends on how much of general knowledge you gain over the years. At first, it was a cyborg with a mysterious past, cool action, very nice artwork and often very emotinal. Then I discovered references to movies (Mad Max, Forbidden Planet, ...) and some hints, like Jeru-Zalem (in the German edition its still Jeru-Zalem). Then I catched the first philosophical thoughts --- and so on.
I like the part now, with the chip-brain Alita. I currently struggle with the french Existentialism of Sartre, so it is very interesting how Kishiro might have used this, too. Like "a human being is only the sum of all its decisions it makes in his whole life". You aren't born as a coward or a hero, you have to decide what you will be, because you are free. Moreover, you are "forced to be free", because there is no destiny or god that says what you are going to be (that where my own translations, sorry...). Earlier, Alita said "I'm human because I have a human brain". Now she says "My decisions make me human". Its not just an element in the story, imo Kishiro is really questioning the definition of "human being" and developes an answer through the manga.

Akhenaton has a fantastic history. Actually, I have always seen him as an enlightened man.

About the crimes committed along history by Christian church, I daresay that we should not responsabilize Ratzinger, as he did not exist when the inquisition took place, simply, as Angela Merkel is not responsible for the Nazism and no white man is responsible for slavery. To charge a contemporary Catholic (or a German, or a white man, etc) for history is the worst possible sort of intolerance.

Besides, if Christians committed crimes in the name of God, the same can be said about Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and only God Himself knows which groups else (even worst in Buddhist case, as they have no god). In short, we would have to be intolerant with whole mankind, and once we are humans, we would have to defend our own extinction. I have already heard that there is a movement of that kind, but I am not that stupid. Their original idea is ecological, anyway. [ http://www.vhemt.org/ ].

And, yes, BAA+BAALO is a great literary work. Period.

They are great works, but still curious if Battle Angel surpassed GTO which was rated at 22nd in either manga or Japan which i'm not 100% sure.

Not saying its worse than GTO because both we're great pieces of work just curious how it was rated # wise.

No offense, you've got some great ideas in the other threads, but that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen! Come on, guys, it's a comic. It's entertainment. It's a wonderfully amusing comic, and I think Kishiro is just having the time of his life, drawing whatever the hell makes him feel happy, whatever he's inspired to draw -- that being badass cyborgs rocking out and wrecking shit. But seriously, a prophetic vision? Like Jules Verne? Please.

!~[AOD]

Makaan wrote:They are great works, but still curious if Battle Angel surpassed GTO which was rated at 22nd in either manga or Japan which i'm not 100% sure.

Not saying its worse than GTO because both we're great pieces of work just curious how it was rated # wise.

Either or English or my state of mind, but I understood nothing at all.

Sergio wrote:

Makaan wrote:They are great works, but still curious if Battle Angel surpassed GTO which was rated at 22nd in either manga or Japan which i'm not 100% sure.

Not saying its worse than GTO because both we're great pieces of work just curious how it was rated # wise.

Either or English or my state of mind, but I understood nothing at all.

They(GTO & BAA) are great works. But I'm still curious if BAA surpasses GTO - GTO was rated 22nd of theentire manga of Japan (though i'm not 100% sure).

I'm not saying that BAA is worse than GTO, because both of them are great pieces of work, but I'm just curious which is rated higher.

just ignore me was talking out of my ass at that time

hepar wrote: They(GTO & BAA) are great works. But I'm still curious if BAA surpasses GTO - GTO was rated 22nd of theentire manga of Japan (though i'm not 100% sure).

I'm not saying that BAA is worse than GTO, because both of them are great pieces of work, but I'm just curious which is rated higher.

Thanks for the intranslation.

Sergio wrote:About the crimes committed along history by Christian church, I daresay that we should not responsabilize Ratzinger, as he did not exist when the inquisition took place, simply, as Angela Merkel is not responsible for the Nazism and no white man is responsible for slavery. To charge a contemporary Catholic (or a German, or a white man, etc) for history is the worst possible sort of intolerance.

Ok thats right. Than let's only talk about todays issues, i.e. that the pope wont immediadely excommunicate that guy who denials the Shoah or that they still are against homosexualls, against abortion or against condoms (which lets spread out HIV especially in Africa).
btw., thats a strange organization you mentioned there... to extinct mankind. Alright, they have a point, we're not very nice to ourselfes and to nature, to the earth. The question is, do we have a responsibility towards future generations? Don't know. Its a question which can't be answered lightly.

@GTO vs. GLO: I would assume that GTO was rated higher, because its a comedy manga and thus has more readers. SciFi and cyborgs is a more special genre than "plain" comedy, although GTO had its serious sides, too.

Cailon wrote:I'm not very firm with other big religions like buddhism but I for myself like the shintoism way, that there is a spirit or a god in everything. It makes you feel respect for nature and life.

Yeah, but not for Koreans and Chinese LOL

Cailon wrote: Ok thats right. Than let's only talk about todays issues, i.e. that the pope wont immediadely excommunicate that guy who denials the Shoah or that they still are against homosexualls, against abortion or against condoms (which lets spread out HIV especially in Africa).
btw., thats a strange organization you mentioned there... to extinct mankind. Alright, they have a point, we're not very nice to ourselfes and to nature, to the earth. The question is, do we have a responsibility towards future generations? Don't know. Its a question which can't be answered lightly.

I have to admit you make sense in some points:
1) That guy OUGHT to be excommunicated, simply. Freedom of speech noes not comply with dogmas.
2) I am against abortion (in general terms) myself, as I am against genocide. I am even against capital punishment, and the fetus has commited no crime at all; at least, not yet (on the other hand, if poeple like Hitler, Stalin, Bush, Stallone, etc had been abortioned, I have to admit the world would be better).
3) To be against homosexuals, simply, is to be against nature. No one decides to be. One simply is.
4) Let's be honest: the condom case is strict to good Catholics, and good Catholics are not supposed to have sexual relations out of the marriage (and, please, do not mention pedophile priests; hipocrisy exists since mankind arouse).
5) That organization is too hallucinated to me.

I have always been ignorant, so I have to ask: what is GTO?

You have a point with the condoms But if you on the other hand believe, that sex with a virgin cures you of HIV, its a porblem. But after all, how the first world, especially "my" europe deals with Africa and hold them little, poor and addicted to our "generosity" by not doing serious help (like deleting such myths like with the virgins), thats a huge problem itself.
As for abortion: Another "good" example would be a child of a rape. But I'm not a woman, and imo this is mainly their thing, its part of their emancipation process, that there is a possibility to do it legally. As a part of their right of self-determination.

@GTO: If I'm correct, its "Great Teacher Onizuka", its a comedy manga. A teacher comes to a school full of ruffians and hoodlums (the girls are not better than the boys). They try to get rid of him by playing dirty tricks (like they did with all the other teachers before) but prior to that job, Onizuka was the leader of a rocker gang so he knows every trick. In the end, he shows a better way in life to the kids and they like him.
I read it to the half and then it was kind of always the same I thought...
Here is a wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Teacher_Onizuka

edit: ewww, so we are completely off of the topic now^^
Ok, its just fun, but lets add: Gunnm even has apokryphica: the discarded ending of Hyper Future Vision.

Cailon wrote:You have a point with the condoms But if you on the other hand believe, that sex with a virgin cures you of HIV, its a porblem. But after all, how the first world, especially "my" europe deals with Africa and hold them little, poor and addicted to our "generosity" by not doing serious help (like deleting such myths like with the virgins), thats a huge problem itself.
As for abortion: Another "good" example would be a child of a rape. But I'm not a woman, and imo this is mainly their thing, its part of their emancipation process, that there is a possibility to do it legally. As a part of their right of self-determination.

Ok, its just fun, but lets add: Gunnm even has apokryphica: the discarded ending of Hyper Future Vision.

Unless I am completely mistaken, the myth that raping a virgin can cure AIDS (and even 7-year-old girls are raped because of that) is not Europeans responsibility; thus, Europeans are not responsible for deleting it - even because it seems impossible. Besides, that sounds to me as an insolent explanation that rapists have invented to justify their acts. Anyway, I cannot believe that the fact that a church (any church) authorizes or not the use of comdon would change that. It seems to me that the myth requires the contamined man to bath in the virginal blood, so the condom would be a counter sense. For God's sake!!!

About abortion, I said that I am against it in general terms. One of the exceptions is exactly the case of rape. To oblige a victiom of rape to continue the pregnancy to the end is to reinforce the violence. The churchs believe that any life is sacred. So do I, but I also believe in self defense. Or would anybody say that this is not the case?

Well, you have just invented a case of Apocrypha in which the author of the heresy is the same author of the holiness. Man, you ARE creative.

Ok, forget about it.
I didn't expect this topic to develop this way. Now I see, that even the idea of this topic is ridiculous, moreover, implementation of this idea was extremely incompetent. Also, it was a great mistake to bind it with religion.

What've shocked me most was that people, who spend a lot of their time in this forum, who are hard fans and who look inside each and every clue, hint, and reference, don't find anything more than just a great comic in this masterpiece. I thought it would be something more than manga for you.
Maybe, only I'm so strange, but I don't care.

I think, this topic has outlived itself, there is nothing to discuss anymore here, it should be discarded.

Int 29Ah wrote:Ok, forget about it.
I didn't expect this topic to develop this way.

As ack44 observed, we are intellectuals. Such a topic would certainly generate debates.

BTW: I had a cat named Akhenaton. He was robbed, believe it or not.
Nowadays my cat is Morfeu (Portuguese for Morpheus). Recently, I had to spend a fortune with the vet, but he is a great friend.

Sergio wrote: About abortion, I said that I am against it in general terms. One of the exceptions is exactly the case of rape. To oblige a victiom of rape to continue the pregnancy to the end is to reinforce the violence. The churchs believe that any life is sacred. So do I, but I also believe in self defense. Or would anybody say that this is not the case?

I wouldn't say that forcing a woman to give birth to a rape child would be reinforcing violence. If the mother's life was in danger and she was forced to give birth, that's clearly violence. I'm not saying I expect countries to strictly prohibit abortion, but the fetus needs to be considered as a life. When people condemn condoms, they are calling for more abortions. Which is more important, childrens lives or sticky sex??