HECTOR4 wrote:I have also made my own article in Facebook analyzing the trailer in depth. It's done in Spanish, but you can see the comparisons with the manga and maybe with Google-Translator you can understand the text a bit XD (it's a compilation of my opinions, some of them I put here, in this forum): https://www.facebook.com/notes/rosas-ne ... 716763518/
It is well written and deep... perhaps too deep, since it looks like you are reviewing an already released movie, not a mere two minutes trailer. I noticed that you took many things from our previous discussion so far. Here is my own, not so extense as yours and it is also based on topics already dicussed here, it is in Portuguese: http://www.shoujo-cafe.com/2017/12/gues ... meiro.html
Yes, as I say, I gathered the opinions that I was placing here and in Facebook debates, haha. The opinions that I have not shown here and that other people have done, are things that I also thought when I saw the trailer, but those eyes dazzled me completely XD The idea of the age of the characters in the original manga is completely in line with mine, for example. And when I saw Chiren in the trailer I already related the film to the OVAs and I already thought that surely Makaku wouldn't have much background in the film.
And it's not too deep (it's rather extensive XD), it's just based on the sensations that the trailer gives me and on the data offered by Robert Rodriguez (like Ido will be an extremely kind character). And the little they have shown in the trailer I compare it with the original manga.
When I can, I look at your article and comment on it ^^
EDIT:
Ok, I've seen your article. I agree that it's not a good idea to use Nova so directly in the film, but in my article I didn't want to say anything until I saw the film. I still don't know what they want to do with Nova exactly. But yes, if they are going to use the character bluntly in the film, I think it's a bad idea. But let's see how they develop it. Another important thing is the Panzer Kunst. Do you really believe that they have studied well all the movements of that fictional martial art for the film? Will they mention it so? And we have agreed that Yugo/Hugo looks too neat XD
Dream wrote:If they just tried Decaduro and wanted her to look "special" as in "not human", they had plenty of tricks at hands to make the skin look less fleshy, or the eyes look less biological, with just a bit of texture play. What they did is an anime blackface. It's trying to cash in "anime fans" by giving her "anime" in the sense that people who don't read manga and don't watch anime think it should look like (as see in 90% of anime western parody using the same triangle mouth and big sailor moon eyes). It's just tasteless, really.
I agree, Dream. It seems like a poor attempt at fan service. But I'm willing to give it a shot nonetheless.
Last edited by NeilWil on Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
HECTOR4 wrote:
Ok, I've seen your article. I agree that it's not a good idea to use Nova so directly in the film, but in my article I didn't want to say anything until I saw the film. I still don't know what they want to do with Nova exactly. But yes, if they are going to use the character bluntly in the film, I think it's a bad idea. But let's see how they develop it. Another important thing is the Panzer Kunst. Do you really believe that they have studied well all the movements of that fictional martial art for the film? Will they mention it so? And we have agreed that Yugo/Hugo looks too neat XD
I think you misunderstood something in the translation. I complained about them not using Nova in the film and merging his character with Vector, a total absurd.
The special effects industry reached a level where they can portray a super hero and his powers with great fidelity to the comics. For example, I loved the way they depicted so well Spiderman's fight moves or style, the same goes for Captain America, this aspect of super hero movies is almost perfect. However showing Alita's panzer kunst, in a way that please us, will be quite a challenge. She does very fast spins, sometimes moves at supersonic speeds, uses plasma and so on. The panzer kunst must be something that would make us so excited like riding a roller coast! With her they would need to create something that was never done before. They have the technology to do that? Yes, they have, but I'm not sure if they have the insight, since they got so many things wrong in the trailer.
P.S.: The closest thing I can remember is the way Faora fought in Man of Steel.
The Hell is here, life itself is hell and humans are at the same time the demons and the damned.
kamugin wrote:
I think you misunderstood something in the translation. I complained about them not using Nova in the film and merging his character with Vector, a total absurd.
What I understand from Rodriguez's words is that Nova can possess people (in some way) and possess Vector, take control of her body at some point. I think it's that and not that they are the same character fruit of merging both ^^ But as I'm not sure, I didn't give much my opinion about it, haha.
The special effects industry reached a level where they can portray a super hero and his powers with great fidelity to the comics. For example, I loved the way they depicted so well Spiderman's fight moves or style, the same goes for Captain America, this aspect of super hero movies is almost perfect. However showing Alita's panzer kunst, in a way that please us, will be quite a challenge. She does very fast spins, sometimes moves at supersonic speeds, uses plasma and so on. The panzer kunst must be something that would make us so excited like riding a roller coast! With her they would need to create something that was never done before. They have the technology to do that? Yes, they have, but I'm not sure if they have the insight, since they got so many things wrong in the trailer.
P.S.: The closest thing I can remember is the way Faora fought in Man of Steel.
Yes, exactly, I believe that today there is a huge advance in special effects, and that almost anything can be represented. With the Panzer Kunst they just have to understand how it works, take into account the movement specifications that Kishiro made for that videogame, and see how he carried out some of them in the original manga. I do not see it so difficult, they should have just taken the trouble to properly investigate that martial art.
It's not really her eyes that bug me. It's her skin on her non-cyborg parts. It looks too real, like the Na'vi. Too many pores. Her entire body is supposed to be artificial and eerily blemish-free, including her face.
I think Alita looks nearly perfect. Just change the skin texture so it looks a bit more artificial, or perhaps make the eyes look a tad more cybernetic. And I hope she gets the lines/war paint under her eyes!
By the way, I really want to know what MooV thinks of the design that Cameron/Rodriguez went with for Alita, since he put so much time, thought, and effort into making his own amazing renders of Gally.
MooV...I’d love to hear your opinion from a CG and character design perspective!
Probaply moov got hired by weta workshop and this is his doing, and of reason as he signed a contract he can't coment this.
But we only saw the "Doll" Body of her. The Berserker body was only shown shortly and not in the full.
Thinking about it, one major emotional landmark that I’ve been worried about being faithfully reproduced has been Hugo’s death, but if you think about it it is quite similar to Jack’s death in Titanic.... So at least that aspect of the story has a solid chance of being preserved...
I only watched the beginning of the interview with Rodriguez. When asked about the decision behind Alita's eyes, his answer was basically "because we can". It's a tech demo.
gcoppini wrote:Thinking about it, one major emotional landmark that I’ve been worried about being faithfully reproduced has been Hugo’s death, but if you think about it it is quite similar to Jack’s death in Titanic.... So at least that aspect of the story has a solid chance of being preserved...
I think Hugo's death scene will be faithful to the original, because the main source for this movie are de the OVAs. Sadly, that means we'll get other things wrong (Makaku's story arc, for example). I liked the trailer and I'm optimistic about the live action, but I don't think there's any chance the movie will satisfy us. I'm ok with some changes (Gonzu, Ido's forehead mark, stuff like that) as long as they serve the story, but Nova controlling people's mind? I don't know, things like that scares me, if they get Nova wrong, it will ruin the movie for me. I hope we're wrong about all that stuff and we get a decent mix between the OVAs and the manga, creating something new and interesting, but that's almost impossible.
What do we desire of life in this world?
What do we desire?
What do we have to show for ourselves?
We accomplish nothing if we fear failure.
If only we could be
stronger...
gcoppini wrote:Thinking about it, one major emotional landmark that I’ve been worried about being faithfully reproduced has been Hugo’s death, but if you think about it it is quite similar to Jack’s death in Titanic.... So at least that aspect of the story has a solid chance of being preserved...
I think Hugo's death scene will be faithful to the original, because the main source for this movie are de the OVAs. Sadly, that means we'll get other things wrong (Makaku's story arc, for example). I liked the trailer and I'm optimistic about the live action, but I don't think there's any chance the movie will satisfy us. I'm ok with some changes (Gonzu, Ido's forehead mark, stuff like that) as long as they serve the story, but Nova controlling people's mind? I don't know, things like that scares me, if they get Nova wrong, it will ruin the movie for me. I hope we're wrong about all that stuff and we get a decent mix between the OVAs and the manga, creating something new and interesting, but that's almost impossible.
Well every battle angel fan respect Nova as a character a lot and many would agree he is the best mad scientist antagonist you'll ever see in fiction (as I think so too as well ), so changing Nova drastically will affect a lot of fans.
gcoppini wrote:Thinking about it, one major emotional landmark that I’ve been worried about being faithfully reproduced has been Hugo’s death, but if you think about it it is quite similar to Jack’s death in Titanic.... So at least that aspect of the story has a solid chance of being preserved...
I think Hugo's death scene will be faithful to the original, because the main source for this movie are de the OVAs. Sadly, that means we'll get other things wrong (Makaku's story arc, for example). I liked the trailer and I'm optimistic about the live action, but I don't think there's any chance the movie will satisfy us. I'm ok with some changes (Gonzu, Ido's forehead mark, stuff like that) as long as they serve the story, but Nova controlling people's mind? I don't know, things like that scares me, if they get Nova wrong, it will ruin the movie for me. I hope we're wrong about all that stuff and we get a decent mix between the OVAs and the manga, creating something new and interesting, but that's almost impossible.
Well every battle angel fan respect Nova as a character a lot and many would agree he is the best mad scientist antagonist you'll ever see in fiction (as I think so too as well ), so changing Nova drastically will affect a lot of fans.
Right. I could live with other changes, but Nova is my favourite, so don't screw him up! I guess that's the same for all of us.
What do we desire of life in this world?
What do we desire?
What do we have to show for ourselves?
We accomplish nothing if we fear failure.
If only we could be
stronger...
Hello, guys. Long time no see.
I could answer this topic right away two days ago, but I’ve taken a forum silence day to honor Sergio.
Now about the trailer.
At first I was shocked, but right now I’m pretty calm. Yes, I'm disappointed and saddened, but I won't freak out.
If I saw this five-seven years ago, it would be an insane butthurt — I’d be able to move the Earth out of it’s orbit with a butthurt propulsion. But, luckily, I’ve got caught up in life and work and stopped caring about manga much (I didn’t jump to another manga, I’ve just stopped reading manga and watching anime/shows/movies nearly completely due to lack of free time).
It's kinda too early to judge anything from the first trailer, but it looks pretty fucked up — at least right now. I don’t like it at all.
As far as you can remember (if you do) — my opinion on this movie was this one from the very beginning — “This movie shouldn’t be made at all, no matter by whom. Don’t fucking touch the masterpiece!” and it looks like I was right all along. You were arguing with each other about the suitable director or what you want to see in the end, while I was telling everyone that this movie should never be made. When I heard that Rodriguez is making it, I stopped expecting anything good — he feels totally unsuitable for this manga. I can’t explain it, I just feel it.
And now you see why I didn’t want it made. It’s because the movie will turn out wrong anyways, but it will be remembered and referenced as an original for decades — it’ll build a stable association for a general public. It will replace the original in mass culture.
It has even happened before — for an anime-public. For guys, who watch anime, but don’t read manga.
For example, I have a friend like that – when he heard the name of a character I was making fanart of, his reaction was instant – “Why are you making fanart for this crap? You’re kinda weird.”. When I told him that it’s a manga, which is a masterpiece, but not anime, he answered that nobody reads manga and nobody cares about it, but anime was crap. I’ve encountered several people like that later – everyone of them knew (or heard) name “Alita”, and all of them were sure that it’s plain rubbish, their only association was an anime, nobody of them has read (or was willing to read after my explanation) the manga, because it’s not their medium at all, they’re not reading type.
When the movie comes out, and if it’ll be shitty, the public will expand from anime-kuns to everyone, and all of it will associate the name with the movie, and the movie only. All of you will meet people, who will ask you why you like that weird crap that much, and you’ll never be able explain to them that it’s manga, which is good – they will never listen or will never read it, if they do listen.
Well, here are my complaints regarding the trailer:
Yep, you’ve guessed it. Eyes. They look insanely weird, disturbing, and out of place, especially in contrast with other characters – she looks like a disney 3d cartoon princess, but not a murder machine.
Also, the skin. It’s too detailed and it looks even weirder with those eyes. Also, I’ve noticed that the skin portion is put onto the body like a mask – all the way down to her shoulders. As far as I can remember, she had a full metal neck in two volumes on all bodies, and it just blended in technologically. I mean, it was like this in manga, but we get something like this in the movie.
I also don’t get why they needed a real similar-looking actress for this project at all. To make facial motion capture easier? The heroine looks like a full CG and doesn’t blend in – she stands out being CG, it’s very noticeable.
Imagine taking a girl from Frozen/Rapunzel/Brave and putting her into a cyberpunk environment mixed with real-life actors and you get the same weird feeling. Also, parts where she falls into a hole or fights cutters look like a cartoon, animation doesn’t look real enough there. I don’t expect these kinds of things from the most awesome and advanced studios in the world (Weta, for god’s sake!), so the only conclusion can be – it's director’s will. And it’s a very bad sign.
The style. It’s just off. It should have been a lot darker, very dirty, bloody, gory, and more blade-runnerish in atmoshpere. I personally expected it to be very similar in visual style to BR2049, but as if it’s a ghetto covered in dirt and shit, lots of rust, steam, trash, junkies, and corpses.
Plot. Looks like it’s based on the anime, so we’re screwed. They’re making crap even crappier. Nothing good to see here.
They’re also mixing volumes 1 and 2 in the same movie – that’s super weird. And the woman is completely out of place. Also, plot things are mixed up - as far as I can see, she fights cutters with the very first one civilian body. So, we won't get the wormhead part, that's uncool.
Btw, I hope she gets a vinyl suit she wore in the first two volumes in the movie, it would be a great fanservice. Yep, she had a vinyl suit on the berserker body and latex suit on the tuned body — just take a look at the side seams of suits in manga. Vinyl is sewn, while latex is glued, and it's very noticeable (also, a hint to cosplayers!).
The only character, who is visually pleasing and true to manga is Vector — he’s a perfect match, at least visually.
I had some more thoughts about this trailer, but I can’t remember them. Maybe, they’ll come to me after I read all your previous comments – I guess, most of my thoughts have already been discussed there.
PS.
Spoiler:
I was entertained a lot reading your jokes about gulags and stuff.
However, I seriously fear that there’s a high possibility of it becoming true within the next 5-10 years — joke or not, but mass executions/total isolation/north korea-like trash can really happen, everything is slowly coming to that.
And I’m trying to work on leaving the country, but I haven’t succeeded yet. Basically, I’m just working my ass off (12-16-24 hours a day with no days off) and saving up money to leave before the big blood begins.
Right now I’m working as a freelance/remote 3d guy mainly for japanese companies, and my skills have grown a lot since I did the manga fanart. I don’t know if I’m allowed to show it or not (we have never discussed it at all with the client), so I’ll show only pieces of stuff I do today: one, two, three.
PSPS.
I haven’t heard anything from hepar since 2012 and I have no other his contacts apart from this forum.
Last edited by moooV on Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
This our ol' pal moooV for ya! moooV, bro, you took the cake! You managed to be more radical and pessimistic than me or anyone else here!
I agree with you about almost everything, except for this movie will be the reference for Alita/Gunnm once it is released. That wasn't the case for Ghost In The Shell, DragonBall, Speed Racer and so on. None of these were replaced in people's minds for some crappy movie. Here in Pindorama (Brazil) people know Alita much more because of the manga (that was released here, for the first time, some ten years ago) than those regrettable OVAs (if I am not wrong, our late friend Sergio was presented to Alita/Gunnm because of the Brazilian edition). I don't know if the Russians are even worse readers than Brazilians though.
However I got your point, instead of attracting new fans (or readers), this movie may keep them away from the manga if it turns out really bad - I fear that it will be the case. A few (in overall) good super hero movies gave new life to the comics industry, thus a bad movie will have the opposite effect.
The only good thing about this movie is that, thanks to its announcement, Alita is being republished here in Brazil in a far better print than it was for the first time.
Spoiler:
Your skills advanced by leaps and bounds since the last time (quoted from Nova), I was delighted by those renderings! They should have hired you to do the movie's character design - no, I'm not sugar coating you (not completely ) Please, by all means, show us the final work after it is released.
Here in Pindorama things are pretty bad too, since our president was deposed by a "constitutional" cup d'etat (supported by - who else?! - the USA!). The gang that seized the power threw away the law and are destroying our country. We are very close to an actual dictatorship. I wish I could leave this fucking place!
P. S.: Amazing, huh? Our "summoning ritual" managed to bring even moooV back from the deepest deeps of Hell - even if it is for a short while, since the Devil himself must be hot on his back!
The Hell is here, life itself is hell and humans are at the same time the demons and the damned.
Only later i found out that the movie was going to be PG-13, which to be honest, will just be the death of it.
PG-13 does not just mean the removal of (much) of the gore, it also means gutting the storyline so its "palpable" to the average American audience. There is studio interference as well, despite Cameron producing. There's an interview saying that Rodriguez deliberately chose PG-13, but that's bullcrap given his previous films, especially Sin City which is actually quite a lot like Alita in a lot of ways.
There's promise in the trailer but i honestly believe now that it's going to tank, badly.
I'm honestly, truly wondering *why*. None of the names involved, producers, editors, studios, are afraid of a little NC-17/R rated action. Rodriguez himself is known for creating amazing NC-17 flicks - Not to mention fairly good stories to boot. Sin City is a previous work of this specific list of names (at least most of them) and it's one of the best adaptations from page to film there is. So why are they trying so hard to fuck this up, even after the main people involved proclaimed themselves to be fans of the manga?
Chrome wrote:Only later i found out that the movie was going to be PG-13, which to be honest, will just be the death of it.
PG-13 does not just mean the removal of (much) of the gore, it also means gutting the storyline so its "palpable" to the average American audience. There is studio interference as well, despite Cameron producing. There's an interview saying that Rodriguez deliberately chose PG-13, but that's bullcrap given his previous films, especially Sin City which is actually quite a lot like Alita in a lot of ways.
There's promise in the trailer but i honestly believe now that it's going to tank, badly.
I'm honestly, truly wondering *why*. None of the names involved, producers, editors, studios, are afraid of a little NC-17/R rated action. Rodriguez himself is known for creating amazing NC-17 flicks - Not to mention fairly good stories to boot. Sin City is a previous work of this specific list of names (at least most of them) and it's one of the best adaptations from page to film there is. So why are they trying so hard to fuck this up, even after the main people involved proclaimed themselves to be fans of the manga?
I'm just confused.
Some people do make pg-13 to get more audience and more revenues in the box office, you notice how some hollywood movies kind of streamline movie's storyline to make it easy to follow, as since they want majority of the audience they try to make it not too complex for the audience
00_unit wrote:
Some people do make pg-13 to get more audience and more revenues in the box office, you notice how some hollywood movies kind of streamline movie's storyline to make it easy to follow, as since they want majority of the audience they try to make it not too complex for the audience
You just stated the obvious, man. I agree with Chrome, Battle Angel Alita isn't supposed to be some Disney movie, with harmless "violence" like Star Wars, it should be Sin City like hardcore at the bare minimum.
The Hell is here, life itself is hell and humans are at the same time the demons and the damned.
00_unit wrote:
Some people do make pg-13 to get more audience and more revenues in the box office, you notice how some hollywood movies kind of streamline movie's storyline to make it easy to follow, as since they want majority of the audience they try to make it not too complex for the audience
You just stated the obvious, man. I agree with Chrome, Battle Angel Alita isn't supposed to be some Disney movie, with harmless "violence" like Star Wars, it should be Sin City like hardcore at the bare minimum.
Oh sorry, I thought Chrome didn't understand the reason why they made the decision, but rather is expressing his disappointment on the decision is the film will compromise deep storytelling.
00_unit wrote:
Some people do make pg-13 to get more audience and more revenues in the box office, you notice how some hollywood movies kind of streamline movie's storyline to make it easy to follow, as since they want majority of the audience they try to make it not too complex for the audience
You just stated the obvious, man. I agree with Chrome, Battle Angel Alita isn't supposed to be some Disney movie, with harmless "violence" like Star Wars, it should be Sin City like hardcore at the bare minimum.
Oh sorry, I thought Chrome didn't understand the reason why they made the decision, but rather is expressing his disappointment on the decision is the film will compromise deep storytelling.
I don't understand the decision, at least not from the perspective of everyone involved. The studio, producers, writers and director aren't afraid to make a good R movie. The director is *famous* for making R movies. Deadpool - A movie which was released long before production and filming on Alita started mind you - proved overnight that an R rated movie can still be a huge, mainstream box office success.
Alita's story thrives on extremes on a very close and personal level. There's no child-friendly "save the world" plot with an obvious bad guy. The gore in the manga (and even in the OVA) has a specific purpose in almost every scene it's depicted. The very first volume, where Makaku, in the narrative, goes from being a one-dimensional bad guy to a character you actually kind of feel sorry for wouldn't work without the body horror that forms part of the core of his character. Nova in later volumes does what he does because of his completely uninhibited thirst for knowledge and freedom, not just to be cruel. And so on.
Alita's own character is rooted in her past as what basically comes down to being an utterly ruthless cyborg assassin and commando, trained in a combat art which is solely aimed at killing the opponent in the most brutally efficient and permanent manner possible.
The juxtaposition of all that hyper violence against the overarching theme of finding and defining humanity is what makes the themes of the manga work.
Once you take this away to make it more kiddy-friendly, what exactly are you left with? Suddenly the story lacks the proper context and contrast for the dialogue and character development. It becomes a case of telling instead of showing. You're being told to believe X and Y just to make some stuff make sense and it severely diminishes the impact of what the story is trying to tell you.
But, here it can go even worse: Imagine they change the story, because they realized that the manga's or OVA's story won't work without the hyperviolence. What will it change to?
They did exactly that with Ghost in the Shell, in a different way. At its core, GitS is not just about defining "what's human", but about defining "what is sentience, what is existence". What makes you human is discussed often, but defined by multiple characters as different things, as one would expect. The kicker comes with the 2501 story arc (the last 2 manga volumes and the main plot of the original movie), where the essence of existence is called into question. Descartes' famous one-liner forms the base of the story.
However, that was deemed to complex for the American audience. To make it palpable for them (note: i'm not insulting anyone, this is how the average producer thinks - Go look up the story of Snowpiercer for a recent example) and to make it kid-friendly, what did they do? They took the essence of the story out, changed everything around so we got a watered down version of Robocop. Though even that was a failure as it missed the point of the original movie (so did the 2014 remake by the way), but that's going a bit off-tangent.
I get it. Adaptations are hard. But you can do it right, and you can do it well. Sin City is a prime example, once again made relevant because of its director. While Lord of the Rings was contentious for most, i hold it as an excellent adaptation as well since it retains the core of the story it's based on.
Ghost in the Shell? It had nice visuals but was otherwise an excercise in how to not understand the material you're working with. Why even call it Ghost in the Shell?
And this - THIS is why the PG-13 rating for Alita spells doom and gloom for the upcoming movie. If it turns out to be the final rating and Rodriguez and co weren't withholding "the good stuff" for the trailer i strongly suspect we will see a major box office flop and a black mark in Cameron's otherwise nearly perfect track record. Somehow i can't shake the feeling that we'll be getting another Robocop rehash "because the average American thinks cyborgs are Robocops so it's best to not confuse them".
The movie got delayed recently, don't like to support most of the hollywood product, since most (not all) of the modern hollywood projects aren't that great, would even dare say terrible for some of them
Yes i noticed the movie merch they've been up on randomhouse's distribution site since november plus fox's licensing expo in las vegas pictures from 2 years ago so something was bound to come from it. I hope rodriguez can get the scenes to be harsh looking like mad max & future war in terminator 1&2.
), so changing Nova drastically will affect a lot of fans.
