Humans, Cyborgs, Androids, Clones, Souls & Karma
Moderator: crazyankan
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Sergio Nova
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MugattuHasGotchu
- Posts: 32
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- Location: Toronto, ON, CA
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The concept of "ghosts" in the shell is interesting and thank you for bringing it up. If we look at it from what we know about technology, AI ghosts would only be able to hide and jump in a fully wireless network. In the Gunnm universe there doesn't seem to be a functional wireless network where brainchipped people like Nova can jump into to escape. It's more self-contained and works better to balance the story on the surface. In GLO however we find out that there is a lot of wireless communication going on with Mbadi hacking into Sech's body and such. Whether or not anyone is able to jump their consciousness is up for debate, but I'd guess it's certainly possible.
If we take this as an analogy for human consciousness, we could guess that maybe our conscious state is a self-contained state like a computer detached from the net, but perhaps subconsciousness is our wireless link to the central pool of interconnectedness. I guess if this were true it could explain paranormal phenomena like astral projection, shared dreaming and telepathy. Our "ghosts" simply taking jaunts into the netspace or at the very least getting "news" from the wire.
As for Sechs being just a battle android, I'd have to disagree. He has a brainchip and therefore has the same capacity as any Tipharean or even Gally to be human. If you take a human child and condition them with mind control to be a fighting machine, they will believe they are nothing more than a fighting machine. But in fact they are human and have the capacity to be more than just what they believe themselves to be capable of being. Sech's personal goal to become legitimate by killing all the other Tuned and Gally herself is an emotional desire that tells me he's become human and has soul. The Terminators on the other hand really are just killing machines, but given the opportunity provided by their learning modes, they too could become humans.
Basically I think it comes down to respecting the potential of life. We respect the possibility that animals and future robots could eventually become intelligent and equal and deserving of our respect. We also respect the role of plants and animals in the biosphere, but does introducing artificial life into the biosphere help or hurt us in the end?
As for Bicentennial Man, I've heard many terrible things about it. Is it really worth watching if I've already seen movies like A.I. and Blade Runner?
If we take this as an analogy for human consciousness, we could guess that maybe our conscious state is a self-contained state like a computer detached from the net, but perhaps subconsciousness is our wireless link to the central pool of interconnectedness. I guess if this were true it could explain paranormal phenomena like astral projection, shared dreaming and telepathy. Our "ghosts" simply taking jaunts into the netspace or at the very least getting "news" from the wire.
As for Sechs being just a battle android, I'd have to disagree. He has a brainchip and therefore has the same capacity as any Tipharean or even Gally to be human. If you take a human child and condition them with mind control to be a fighting machine, they will believe they are nothing more than a fighting machine. But in fact they are human and have the capacity to be more than just what they believe themselves to be capable of being. Sech's personal goal to become legitimate by killing all the other Tuned and Gally herself is an emotional desire that tells me he's become human and has soul. The Terminators on the other hand really are just killing machines, but given the opportunity provided by their learning modes, they too could become humans.
Basically I think it comes down to respecting the potential of life. We respect the possibility that animals and future robots could eventually become intelligent and equal and deserving of our respect. We also respect the role of plants and animals in the biosphere, but does introducing artificial life into the biosphere help or hurt us in the end?
As for Bicentennial Man, I've heard many terrible things about it. Is it really worth watching if I've already seen movies like A.I. and Blade Runner?
Read the Asimov's story instead.MugattuHasGotchu wrote: As for Bicentennial Man, I've heard many terrible things about it. Is it really worth watching if I've already seen movies like A.I. and Blade Runner?
It features some nice philosophy on the subject what makes a robot a robot, and what makes a man a man.
http://www.box.net/shared/uhepf3ocgk
It is about 26 pages long. Sorry about the layout.
But look around you ...
Death and Light are everywhere, always, and they begin, end, strive,
attend, into and upon the Dream of the Nameless that is the world,
burning words within Samsara, perhaps to create a thing of beauty.
Death and Light are everywhere, always, and they begin, end, strive,
attend, into and upon the Dream of the Nameless that is the world,
burning words within Samsara, perhaps to create a thing of beauty.
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MugattuHasGotchu
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:01 am
- Location: Toronto, ON, CA
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ugh .. i read that novel "The Bicentennial Man" of Asimovs..
Its quite cool.. and all range of problem is considered in it..
(i dont want to spoil it so READ)
About "wireless connection" in LO i think connection is established rather by nanomachines then some kind of ultra-hack-wave signal.. i know Anderson spell was ultrasound wave but in concept of Mbadi and Nova they use nanomachines.. so their awarness isnt droped from their body.. they are "merly" giving orders..
This consciousness in ur point is quite interesting.. in LO they called this "Karmateron Theory" so... eventualy its Melchizedek ... and other things with comunicating betwen brains and so on .. its described when Ping fights Trinidad.. soo who know it is maybe true maybe not ..
Geting to main Point..
I think that being "Human Being" and being "Considered as Human Being" are quite diffrent.. Soooo.. you are right.. Sechs IS human being..
(so many Being words that i cant stop laugh 
) He was accepted as it by Gally..
But hmmm... all concept is such strange.. what do you think about Jovians and for example all their Warmen 609 "creations"...
And Venusians on the other hand who are organic and can produce from cells anything..
Cyborgs are formaly a men who meitained their life in mechanical form....
Androids are human shaped robots with potential of men...
Geneticaly Modified humans are humans that went in oposite way than cyborgs
?
Its quite cool.. and all range of problem is considered in it..
(i dont want to spoil it so READ)
About "wireless connection" in LO i think connection is established rather by nanomachines then some kind of ultra-hack-wave signal.. i know Anderson spell was ultrasound wave but in concept of Mbadi and Nova they use nanomachines.. so their awarness isnt droped from their body.. they are "merly" giving orders..
This consciousness in ur point is quite interesting.. in LO they called this "Karmateron Theory" so... eventualy its Melchizedek ... and other things with comunicating betwen brains and so on .. its described when Ping fights Trinidad.. soo who know it is maybe true maybe not ..
Geting to main Point..
I think that being "Human Being" and being "Considered as Human Being" are quite diffrent.. Soooo.. you are right.. Sechs IS human being..
(so many Being words that i cant stop laugh ) He was accepted as it by Gally..But hmmm... all concept is such strange.. what do you think about Jovians and for example all their Warmen 609 "creations"...
And Venusians on the other hand who are organic and can produce from cells anything..
Cyborgs are formaly a men who meitained their life in mechanical form....
Androids are human shaped robots with potential of men...
Geneticaly Modified humans are humans that went in oposite way than cyborgs
?I think this will be my first post. YAY! ^-^
My memory on Gunnm is a bit rusty... but I do beleive in the Karmateron Theory. Were as our actions literally affect every one around us and in some concept the entire world (over time)
I believe that if you take a baby lock it in a large room with only autonomous care facilities to keep it alive. That when it grows, it will only learn from what it had interacted with. So in time it will learn to change its own diaper, feed itself, and in some way become self sufficient. But it will in no way be sentient.
Just like animals and people alike, we all grow and develop base on interaction with our surroundings. No interaction, no growth and without either we begin to decay.
Our souls are said to be eternal, I do believe this is true, in some form. Through reproduction we are imprinted with basic information (Instinct). The need for nutrients, survival, and reproduction, strong powerful needs. And since instincts are passed down, to offspring then why not other strong experiences? Some people can tap into their 'past lives' others (including myself) have had nightmares about traumatic experiences that their parents experienced and never wish to talk about. In Christianity and many other religions our souls are put on this planetary body to gather experience and to grow until they are ready for the next step in their spiritual path (ie. heaven, reincarnation, hell, ect.).
The lump sum of our experiences make us who we are. I believe that even if we copy ourselves exactly, from that our exact copy becomes conscious of its surroundings that it will slowly become a differnt person thru its own interaction. Sure the original and the copy will have similar tendencies at times but over a length of time the copy will gain its own 'soul' that is different from the original because of the variation of interaction it had accumulated.
Just like Alita's copy's the AR series (i think that's it), over time they gained their own sentience and their own individuality.
Sechs constant combat and little interaction with others outside of battle gave her (guess him now) a more rough, hardened, competitive, more masculine individuality.
While the other two (names escape me at the moment) stayed up in the labs and never truly had to fight to live. Over time they (as a pair) became more care free, silly, and overly cute in a twin type of way.
Over all, the three remaining AR soft-body AI's developed and also stemmed from Alita's complex personality due to their different environments. Hence developing their own personalities and individuality.
Just like in the very beginning of BA, Alita was sweet, innocent, and carefree. She was free of her harsh past. It was only due to the cold reality of the Scrapyard that awakened her combative instincts. Her natural curiosity and a overprotective push from the doc, aided her in exploring her own mind. Eventually in a sense of Karmateron Theory her own actions threw forth much of the advents the befell the scrapyard and her eventual imprisonment and recruitment into the development of the AR series and then to the events that befell Vol. 8.
Vol 8 of BA is quite interesting, it shows Karmateron Theory in practice. Due to the hacking of Alita's brain by the crackpot genious, Alita relives her inital days of reawakening and becomes a different person altogether.
I think, personally, that the very foundation of the Karmateron Theory is the soul of a person, AI, or even animal that has the capacity for thought. Our own experiences dictate who we are and since no two people can ever share the same exact life, no soul is alike.
We as part of existence itself only know how to move forward. Everything we experience can only compound on top of our past and aide us in our decisions on how to move forward. We cannot change our past from a present standpoint, our soul (the sum of our experiences to current point) cannot allow it. Even if you relive the past and become a different person you will always feel something amiss, for your soul knows that only deluding yourself.
As long as an object has the ability to grow, interact, and react to its enviroment then I personally beleive that anything can gain a soul and its own individuality. Everything that grows has the capacity for individuality (no two trees look exactly alike). The larger its capacity, the more it can grow and eventually increase or even decrease its own capacity depending on its environment.
Oh yeah crackpots name is Nova and in BA:LO doesnt he devlop into three differnt entities? Kind nova on thepharies, Brainchip on a dispaly nova, and evil scientist super nova?
.
What what are we talking about again? Souls or humanity? i cant remeber its to late at night for me to be doing this. In the end its all in what we have the capacity to accept as a common truth. If a robot/android/AI can relate to us and show growth and individuality then when we get past the whole racism thing (again) it should be fine... beleifs with be redefined and ideas merged.
Hell at one point, Christians thought all non-believers where soulless heretics that deserved to be burned and raped in the name of the One-God.
In time in time. we only move forward....ever going until the universe dies out. Guess you could look at it like a pinball machine, if cosmic randomness deems a matching number it just might resest and a another point in infinidum, well be doing this again in another form.... lol.
My memory on Gunnm is a bit rusty... but I do beleive in the Karmateron Theory. Were as our actions literally affect every one around us and in some concept the entire world (over time)
I believe that if you take a baby lock it in a large room with only autonomous care facilities to keep it alive. That when it grows, it will only learn from what it had interacted with. So in time it will learn to change its own diaper, feed itself, and in some way become self sufficient. But it will in no way be sentient.
Just like animals and people alike, we all grow and develop base on interaction with our surroundings. No interaction, no growth and without either we begin to decay.
Our souls are said to be eternal, I do believe this is true, in some form. Through reproduction we are imprinted with basic information (Instinct). The need for nutrients, survival, and reproduction, strong powerful needs. And since instincts are passed down, to offspring then why not other strong experiences? Some people can tap into their 'past lives' others (including myself) have had nightmares about traumatic experiences that their parents experienced and never wish to talk about. In Christianity and many other religions our souls are put on this planetary body to gather experience and to grow until they are ready for the next step in their spiritual path (ie. heaven, reincarnation, hell, ect.).
The lump sum of our experiences make us who we are. I believe that even if we copy ourselves exactly, from that our exact copy becomes conscious of its surroundings that it will slowly become a differnt person thru its own interaction. Sure the original and the copy will have similar tendencies at times but over a length of time the copy will gain its own 'soul' that is different from the original because of the variation of interaction it had accumulated.
Just like Alita's copy's the AR series (i think that's it), over time they gained their own sentience and their own individuality.
Sechs constant combat and little interaction with others outside of battle gave her (guess him now) a more rough, hardened, competitive, more masculine individuality.
While the other two (names escape me at the moment) stayed up in the labs and never truly had to fight to live. Over time they (as a pair) became more care free, silly, and overly cute in a twin type of way.
Over all, the three remaining AR soft-body AI's developed and also stemmed from Alita's complex personality due to their different environments. Hence developing their own personalities and individuality.
Just like in the very beginning of BA, Alita was sweet, innocent, and carefree. She was free of her harsh past. It was only due to the cold reality of the Scrapyard that awakened her combative instincts. Her natural curiosity and a overprotective push from the doc, aided her in exploring her own mind. Eventually in a sense of Karmateron Theory her own actions threw forth much of the advents the befell the scrapyard and her eventual imprisonment and recruitment into the development of the AR series and then to the events that befell Vol. 8.
Vol 8 of BA is quite interesting, it shows Karmateron Theory in practice. Due to the hacking of Alita's brain by the crackpot genious, Alita relives her inital days of reawakening and becomes a different person altogether.
I think, personally, that the very foundation of the Karmateron Theory is the soul of a person, AI, or even animal that has the capacity for thought. Our own experiences dictate who we are and since no two people can ever share the same exact life, no soul is alike.
We as part of existence itself only know how to move forward. Everything we experience can only compound on top of our past and aide us in our decisions on how to move forward. We cannot change our past from a present standpoint, our soul (the sum of our experiences to current point) cannot allow it. Even if you relive the past and become a different person you will always feel something amiss, for your soul knows that only deluding yourself.
As long as an object has the ability to grow, interact, and react to its enviroment then I personally beleive that anything can gain a soul and its own individuality. Everything that grows has the capacity for individuality (no two trees look exactly alike). The larger its capacity, the more it can grow and eventually increase or even decrease its own capacity depending on its environment.
Oh yeah crackpots name is Nova and in BA:LO doesnt he devlop into three differnt entities? Kind nova on thepharies, Brainchip on a dispaly nova, and evil scientist super nova?
.
What what are we talking about again? Souls or humanity? i cant remeber its to late at night for me to be doing this. In the end its all in what we have the capacity to accept as a common truth. If a robot/android/AI can relate to us and show growth and individuality then when we get past the whole racism thing (again) it should be fine... beleifs with be redefined and ideas merged.
Hell at one point, Christians thought all non-believers where soulless heretics that deserved to be burned and raped in the name of the One-God.
In time in time. we only move forward....ever going until the universe dies out. Guess you could look at it like a pinball machine, if cosmic randomness deems a matching number it just might resest and a another point in infinidum, well be doing this again in another form.... lol.