GLO's incubator hypotheses

[alex-r6]

hi all,

just an idea: if there was Lou in the incubator, shouldn't be there IDO and NOVA's brains?

and then... how could Gally save Lou without saving Ido too?

and funky-super-Nova ... didn't he think to find his own brain?



that could give some future scenariis, don't you think?

[Sergio Nova]

I had never thought about that, but you should remember that the brains are collected when the "donor" is 19 years old, so there is no Ido or Nova to be saved. Their personalities have changed much.

[moooV]

2 alex-r6:

I've had the same ideas, they were going further, I've had them right after I've read Isidorios's theory, which has really got me. Here they are (they are separate and can cancel each other out):

1) What if Alita's brain was created BY Nova's original brain using Melchizedek?
2) What if original Alita's brain is a modified original Nova's brain?
3) What if all brain chips are not stand-alone, but remote-controlled by a real brain in a matrix (even Nova is unaware about it)?
4) What about concept of multi-bodies? In universe of Gunnm we have: cyborgs, robots, bc-people (tiphareans), multi-bc people (Super Nova), and multi-bc+brain people (Trinidad). What if there were multi-bodied people? Kaos is not appropriate for this, he had multiple personality. What if a lot of bodies can be simultaneously controlled by one brain containing one personality, act like copies of the base person. If it's easier to understand, I can put it his way: it's like all tuned were the same person and controlled by a single brain via remote link?
5) What if the whole story and world are just dreams of Alita's brain in a matrix (remember, BAA's second name is "Gun dreams").

Sounds like a smoked post, but this time it isn't. =)))

[Sergio Nova]

To Int 29Ah

1. Interesting idea. Considering the different aspects in the narrative, it is NOT impossible.
2. Excuse me. The text does not make sense. Please reformulate it.
3. That would be an ilimited nightmare.
4. That idea is absurd, simply because a single brain would never be able to control two bodies. It is completely against human (or any terrestrial animal's) nature. According to your theory, a single brain could speak simultaneously different subjects. While Elf and Zwölf were debating senseless ideas, Sechs would be preparing his fight strategies and Alita would be studying the past of Earth in Melchizedek's core. In short: completely absurd, even to an entirely fictional reality.

[crazyankan]

Wasn't Nova a creation from Ketheres? he was one of the few super geniuses that didn't commit suicide or died.
So it's a chance that he never had a brain. He was created with a brain chip.

[Sergio Nova]

Wasn't Nova a creation from Ketheres? he was one of the few super geniuses that didn't commit suicide or died.
So it's a chance that he never had a brain. He was created with a brain chip.

Possible, but now we would have a new question: where does his original body come from? We know he has to power to regenerate himself, but he is supposed to have had a first body, anyway.

[moooV]

Wasn't Nova a creation from Ketheres? he was one of the few super geniuses that didn't commit suicide or died.
So it's a chance that he never had a brain. He was created with a brain chip.

Possible, but now we would have a new question: where does his original body come from? We know he has to power to regenerate himself, but he is supposed to have had a first body, anyway.

An original brain should have existed anyway. Brain chip without a brain image isn't operable, like a computer without OS. So, there should be an image, which has been written into a chip. And this image can't be taken from anywhere but brain itself.

On the other hand, a Melchizedec possibly could create an artificial image and write it into a brain chip, why not. Then, developing this idea, an artificial image can be written into a brain. So, taking in account Isidorios's theory, Alita's or Nova's (or maybe both o_0) consiousness can be a syntetic image written into a biological brain, why not?

2. Excuse me. The text does not make sense. Please reformulate it.
3. That would be an ilimited nightmare.
4. That idea is absurd, simply because a single brain would never be able to control two bodies. It is completely against human (or any terrestrial animal's) nature. According to your theory, a single brain could speak simultaneously different subjects. While Elf and Zwölf were debating senseless ideas, Sechs would be preparing his fight strategies and Alita would be studying the past of Earth in Melchizedek's core. In short: completely absurd, even to an entirely fictional reality.

Ok, I'll try to make it simpler.

2) Let's propose that Nova is older than Alita (we don't know how old he was when he was expelled from a floating city). What if Melchizedek has just put original Nova's brain into Alita (even before her childhood), modified it's DNA to be a female, and completely erased it's memory to create an antipode to Nova. [Yes, sounds ridiculous even to me]
3) Did you mean "unlimited nightmare"? Why? This option solves lots of problems like syncronization or fork of personalities, conciousnesses of a brain in a matrix and a bc image. It just is the same, because original brain still controls the body, just remotely.
4) We use only 10% of brain's power, then why it can't control multiple bodies using left 90%? Umba could control 10 arms, so it isn't really impossible even for this fictional world. Also, there are people with multiple bc's inside, so it even can be possible for them, why not?

According to your theory, a single brain could speak simultaneously different subjects.

Even in real world, there are lots of people who can perform lots of task simultaneously. The most well-known for this is Julius Caesar. For example, he could simultaneouly speak about politics with his patricians, write a letter to a foreign ruler and do something else, I don't remember what. o_0 If he had lots of mouths, he could have spoken different subjects simultaneously. Unfortunately, he had one. So, there are no reasons to claim that this is impossible, even in fictional world. =)))

[Dream]

1) What if Alita's brain was created BY Nova's original brain using Melchizedek?
2) What if original Alita's brain is a modified original Nova's brain?

Pretty sure it can't work because of the timeline. Nova is part of a project that started after Gally's birth I think.

3) What if all brain chips are not stand-alone, but remote-controlled by a real brain in a matrix (even Nova is unaware about it)?

Sounds a little bit over the top.

4) What about concept of multi-bodies? In universe of Gunnm we have: cyborgs, robots, bc-people (tiphareans), multi-bc people (Super Nova), and multi-bc+brain people (Trinidad). What if there were multi-bodied people? Kaos is not appropriate for this, he had multiple personality. What if a lot of bodies can be simultaneously controlled by one brain containing one personality, act like copies of the base person. If it's easier to understand, I can put it his way: it's like all tuned were the same person and controlled by a single brain via remote link?

I could see that work, but only if the primary mind is a program or something. Or maybe just one body at a time.

5) What if the whole story and world are just dreams of Alita's brain in a matrix

That would be pretty meh story wise.


Talking about the incubator, I donc get why there's so few brain in it compared to Zalem population. Even if you count some brain deaths, there should be far more than that. Do you think they just select some of the brains and get rid of the others?

[Sergio Nova]

An original brain should have existed anyway. Brain chip without a brain image isn't operable, like a computer without OS. So, there should be an image, which has been written into a chip. And this image can't be taken from anywhere but brain itself.

On the other hand, a Melchizedec possibly could create an artificial image and write it into a brain chip, why not.

Thus, you yourself developed a theory and then promptly destroyed it.

Let's propose that Nova is older than Alita (we don't know how old he was when he was expelled from a floating city). What if Melchizedek has just put original Nova's brain into Alita (even before her childhood), modified it's DNA to be a female, and completely erased it's memory to create an antipode to Nova. [Yes, sounds ridiculous even to me]

Your conclusion is enough to me.

Did you mean "unlimited nightmare"?

All right! You have found a spelling mistake.

Even in real world, there are lots of people who can perform lots of task simultaneously. The most well-known for this is Julius Caesar. For example, he could simultaneouly speak about politics with his patricians, write a letter to a foreign ruler and do something else, I don't remember what. o_0 If he had lots of mouths, he could have spoken different subjects simultaneously. Unfortunately, he had one. So, there are no reasons to claim that this is impossible, even in fictional world. =)))

You are kidding, right? What you said should be crowned as the greatest absurd of all times. You should ask any psychologist (and I know that there are great ones in Russia) or at least a neurologist. Supposing Julius Caesar was really so powerful, he was an X-man, simply.

[spacey]

I have the same opinion as Sergio - a human brain cannot control several bodies at the same time. It even cannot fine control one whole body at the same time. It has to focus on special parts.

But I cannot understand the reason behind this extrem obesession about Lou and not about Ido. Both persons lost their real brain before they met Alita. So if she wants to save Lou (which should be comparable to a clone - same DNA but not personality) why not Ido? She (or probably the author?) does not even think a second about.

I don't think Alita has Nova's brain. Nova seems to be very excentric all the time. But Alita was very tumb and cool on Mars. Totally different compared to Nova. The later Alita has strength and personality - like Nova.

At the moment my hope lies on the organic brain of Alita. The actual one is a crossing of a chip with a super computer. What happens when Nova resurrects Alitas brain again. Who would be our loved Alita? The cool behaving computer or the organic one with the personality from big parts of the whole manga? I know whom I would choose . And we have enough Novas to do the job

The stuff about Melchizedek pisses me off. The story gets more and more weird.

[Cailon]

@Spacey: I think it has a bit to do with the "Why Alita must die"-Thread. Now, she is in some kind of state of zen, like the last cat in Tojis story or like Don Fua. Her mind is empty, focussed on nothing and therefore she is extremely strong. On the other hand, she acts cold to her beloved ones, like Don Fua who just sat there and did nothing. Sooner or later Alita might fall into the same lethargy. So her real brain has to come back to her (with some conclusion of course, that she wont forget the battle experience with her BC).

@size of the incubator: good question. But they never said anything about choosing one brain and dumping another. Maybe the brains are not immortal like all humans, but only live for about 80 years. Maybe, because of all the stress they have to cope with (after all they are public mind-toilets), they only make it 40-50 years. Lets assume the brain-block is 100³, that would make 1 million brains. If about 500.000 people live in Zalem, you'd always have 50% fresh ones and 50% older ones.

Alitas brain being made by Melchizedek or Nova... well its futile to talk about it right now, because there is no real evidence nor counterevidence. But its true, Alita caused Melchizedek to go crazy in the first place, so Nova is definitely younger than Yoko/ Alita.

@Lou vs. Ido: Maybe Alita accepted his wish to live in peace, knowing nothing. Bringing his brain to him, saying, "loook what I've got fer ya", would only stir up old wounds.

[MrFaber]

> 1) What if Alita's brain was created BY Nova's original brain using Melchizedek?

Com'on....

> 2) What if original Alita's brain is a modified original Nova's brain?

Com'on....

>3) What if all brain chips are not stand-alone, but remote-controlled by a real brain in a matrix (even Nova is unaware about
>it)?

Unlikely. Salemites are lab mice in a intelligence studies exepriment which implys simulating intelligence by the brainchip, it would force the hand. By the way brain matrix is not there on holidays, it's pretty busy doing melchizedeks computations.

>4) What about concept of multi-bodies? In universe of Gunnm we have: cyborgs, robots, bc-people (tiphareans), multi-bc
>people (Super Nova), and multi-bc+brain people (Trinidad). What if there were multi-bodied people? Kaos is not appropriate
>for this, he had multiple personality. What if a lot of bodies can be simultaneously controlled by one brain containing one
>personality, act like copies of the base person. If it's easier to understand, I can put it his way: it's like all tuned were the
>same person and controlled by a single brain via remote link?

U make an exception out of Kaos/Den, but he is exactly the case. It's possible and already shown. Even to control more then a body per time, as Kaos and Den interacted face to face

>5) What if the whole story and world are just dreams of Alita's brain in a matrix (remember, BAA's second name is "Gun
>dreams").

I hope not, that would be a pretty cheep ending for a good story. Fans wouldn't appreciate.

[hepar]

You're forgetting one thing! No not one, it' two things:
1) Zechs, Elf & Zwolf are not Alita's copies. They were created using brainchips and information that was collected while observing Alita.
Let me explain. We've got Alita's memories zipped inside her brain and her personality installed.
We can copy only her memoris and movements that she revealed while we observing her. So we put them into clear brainchip.
This way we can never create any personality that would react as Alita, but because brainchips are so much like brain they wold create a personality by their own, just like original Alita did when she lost her memory.
To make a real copy of Alita we have to copy all her memories and personality created by her experience - this could happen only if we do it with a mashine that creates brainchips for tipherians.
It is, however possible that real brain controlls brainchip on quantum level - that means that real Alita and Nekalita are the very same person. That also mean that Zechs, Elf and Zwolf are controlled by using someone's else brain each, in which Alita's memories were putted (not even memories, but rather only panzer-kunst).
2)Nova isn't ordinal human, but rather superhuman. It's possible for him to have brain which could controll not one, but rather several copies of himself.

And also... You don't quite understand. Brain controlls body not like the computer. It's more like waves on ether that came from differet angles with different phase, frq and amplitude runs through a labirynth. Through a whole labyrinth. This property means that speed of reaction in brain will not differ if it controlls one or two or three bodies at the same time, for different persons brain could use partuculary the very same neurons - even for different counsciousness existing at the same time - brain cannot be overloaded just by information, however it is not possible for real brain to create a different personalities that are awake at the same time, or to controll extra limbs - because it has a very strict structure and cannot change or multiply the axons that are coming out of it.
All that mean that if Nova's superbrain really controlls several chips, then every different Nova will have the very same IQ as original, and Supernova won't be different from the others, eventhough he uses two chips. IQ is not a constant that you can multiply or divide.

[Dream]

I always considered zechs, elf and zwölf as "what if" alita. Of course they don't have most of her non combat memory, but still I think they are still pretty close in term of personality. Just that hte clones are more extreme than the original.
Also Neko Gally is not even the original now.

[moooV]

You are kidding, right? What you said should be crowned as the greatest absurd of all times. You should ask any psychologist (and I know that there are great ones in Russia) or at least a neurologist. Supposing Julius Caesar was really so powerful, he was an X-man, simply.

2 Sergio:
I percept this like "Fuck off, you should go see a doctor.".

Ok, let's return to a Caesar. I've spent about 24 hours of continuous googling this topic to answer your challenge, also I've phoned my friend, who is a psychiatrist and is currently working in London.
I've noticed something really weird. Everyone knows it here that Caesar could do lots of things at the same time. In Russian language there is even an ideomathic expression translated as "I'm not Julius Caesar, I can't do many things at the same time.", which is used when you're asked to do some things simultaneously by different people (hepar will confirm this).
And there are lots of historical articles about Caesar, mentioning that he could do that. But the problem is: all these articles are in Russian. During this time of googling I haven't found even a slightest notice about it in English-languaged articles.



So, I give you some of Russian articles, which are translated by google translator:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Psychology of memory":
http://translate.google.com/translate?p ... ry_state0=.

Google translated:

True, has become a textbook example of Julius Caesar, who knew how to do a number of cases. Another unique example. NG Chernyshevskiy could zanimatsya two activities. For example to write an article for "Sovremenika" and dictate to the Secretary of the translation from the German "World History" Schlosser.

Original:

Правда, хрестоматийным стал пример Юлия Цезаря, который умел делать одновременно несколько дел. Еще один уникальный пример. Н. Г. Чернышевский мог заниматся двумя видами деятельности. Например писать статью для “Современика” и диктовать секретарю перевод с немецкого “Всемирной истории” Шлоссера."

Correct translation:

Truth is, example of Julius Caesar has become classical, who could do several things simultaneosly. One more unique example, N.G. Chernyshevsky, was able to occupy himself with two activities. For example, write article for "Sovremennik" and dictate to a secretary translation from German of "Worldwide history" by Schlosser.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"History of ancient world: Dictatorship of Caesar"
http://translate.google.com/translate?p ... ry_state0=

Google translation:

Caesar was a talented and educated man. It can simultaneously make a number of cases equally well, such as read, dictate a message to discuss public affairs.

Original:

Цезарь был талантливым и образованным человеком. Он одновременно мог делать несколько дел одинаково хорошо, например читать, диктовать послание, обсуждать государственные дела.

Correct translation:

Caesar was a talented and educated man. He could simultaneously do several things equally well, such as reading, dictating a message, discuss public affairs.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Historical lessons PR: from Julius Caesar to Pablo Picasso"
http://translate.google.com/translate?p ... ry_state0=

Almost correct, I'm tired of this, so I didn't correct it:

He was not spared time and energy to writing books on Gallic and Civil wars, constantly being in mortal danger. These books, as many researchers believe, is not only seriously affected the appearance of a fantastic legend of the unique leaders who can simultaneously make multiple incompatible cases, but also...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Now, here is what I was told by a psychiatrist:

It is well-known that some people can do several things at one time. Basically, everyone can, but on a very primitive level: you can go across the street chewing a gum and talking at mobile phone. But there are people specially trained to so such things. This is done at Zvezdny, a cosmonaut training centre. It's one of common trainings: a person should count down aloud from 100 to 0 with a step of 7 (subtract 7 every second), while assembling a constructor like Lego with one hand, and showing Stone, Paper, Scissors (from this game, yes) in precise order with another hand. This training really helps them in case of emergency in space.

What you said should be crowned as the greatest absurd of all times.

No. Use google before answering. I used it this time instead of you.

Now I'll go have some sleep and nightmares about google.

[Dharko]

jejeje I love the fights between Int 29Ah and Sergio...

It is already a classic of rippersanime!!

[moooV]

We're not fighting and we have never did. Also, we aren't in conflict. We are just having a heated debate.

[spacey]

@Spacey: I think it has a bit to do with the "Why Alita must die"-Thread. Now, she is in some kind of state of zen, like the last cat in Tojis story or like Don Fua. Her mind is empty, focussed on nothing and therefore she is extremely strong. On the other hand, she acts cold to her beloved ones, like Don Fua who just sat there and did nothing. Sooner or later Alita might fall into the same lethargy. So her real brain has to come back to her (with some conclusion of course, that she wont forget the battle experience with her BC).

@Lou vs. Ido: Maybe Alita accepted his wish to live in peace, knowing nothing. Bringing his brain to him, saying, "loook what I've got fer ya", would only stir up old wounds.

Both good ideas . The idea with Don Fu makes hope for the real Alita to come back

[Sergio Nova]

I will check these texts with special attention.
No, I did not have the intention of sending you to a doctor as if saying you are sick. I am NOT so cynic. When I want to offend (and that is rare), I do that explicitly. My idea was exactly to suggest you to ask an expert, as you did asking the psychiatrist.

I wll comment about the articles later.

[alex-r6]

1) What if Alita's brain was created BY Nova's original brain using Melchizedek?
impossible, in the game, it seems that she came really from mars, and has a link with mars's queen


2) What if original Alita's brain is a modified original Nova's brain?
same answer, I guess Alita's brain is... Alita's brain but now it's in the incubator, and it doesn't look like Alita-with-MIB/fatamorgana have any intention to take it back


3) What if all brain chips are not stand-alone, but remote-controlled by a real brain in a matrix (even Nova is unaware about it)?

yeah, but at this rate, we're all in the matrix...


4) What about concept of multi-bodies? In universe of Gunnm we have: cyborgs, robots, bc-people (tiphareans), multi-bc people (Super Nova), and multi-bc+brain people (Trinidad). What if there were multi-bodied people? Kaos is not appropriate for this, he had multiple personality. What if a lot of bodies can be simultaneously controlled by one brain containing one personality, act like copies of the base person. If it's easier to understand, I can put it his way: it's like all tuned were the same person and controlled by a single brain via remote link?
this might be a good solution, alita's brain safe in the incubator, linked to alita's chip MIB... but is that a good life?



5) What if the whole story and world are just dreams of Alita's brain in a matrix (remember, BAA's second name is "Gun dreams").

gun's dream make reference if I'm right, to "gunnm" signification in japanish, 'gunnma' sounds aproximately as "dream of a gun", so nothing to see with some Alita's dream...



well, to my mind, Yukito Kishiro must be concocting some issue for the incubator and all the people inside... but later maybe, who knows, maybe after mars story... but it would be strange that ther would be no issue for Ido especialy (I'm not afraid for Desty Nova)

[moooV]

Ok, forget everything written above. Today a new idea has came on me.

Follow the logical chain:
Incubator has many times smaller capacity than population of Tiphares ===> only select brains can be taken there ===> these brains are elite ===> Maybe this is not a "dream dump", but a very essence of Melchidezek, Melchidezek itself is a collective unconciousness of these brains, a hive intellect ===> People from Ketheres could be used for calculations for Melch via peacekeeper (like today's botnets) before creation of a matrix - hive intellect without a matrix failed, so it was created to lower load on Ketherians' brains, but took government and controlling functions ===> Alita is a chosen one, she's got into matrix ===> It's not so bad for her to be in the matrix - she can influence Melch's decisions ===> Her bc version did it on purpose ===> How did she rebuild her body after distruction by Super Nova? ===> Maybe her original brain asked original Nova's brain to rebuild her bc's body using Melch's powers

What do you think?

[Sergio Nova]

How did she rebuild her body after distruction by Super Nova?

She didn't! Nova did.

[moooV]

How did she rebuild her body after distruction by Super Nova?

She didn't! Nova did.

I haven't read after phase 76, so I can't say anything here. Spoiler (Yes/No)?

[Sergio Nova]

I haven't read after phase 76, so I can't say anything here. Spoiler (Yes/No)?

I apologize. I made a stupid mistake.
Desty (not Super) Nova rebuilt Alita's body after that baby-trap, that is, in the first volume of Last Order. After her destruction by Supernova, exactly as you mentioned, she rebuilt her body from Tunguska.

[spacey]

Edit: Argh, I also confused verything...

Now my head hurts