Origins of Alita

[Pholwanna]

I recall Ido saying Alita's original head/body was made a few hundred years.

Question is, how long can a human brain live and operate?

[TheNefariousImp]

It can live as long as the writer's fictional stasis technology allows it too.

[Megan_Gale]

With the proper supply of nutrients, removal of beta amyloid plaque (alzheimers and whatnot), and some protective measures against oxidization? It could theoretically be prolonged as long as the supply of fats and amino acids lasts.
Would she have been ejected into the atmosphere with such things?

Mind you Desty Nova remarked that something unique was up with the STRUCTURE of her brain in hte first chapter of LO...

Why would a girl as young as Yoko was in the flashback have a cyborg body...?

[HumanRage]

what desty nova found is something beyond his knowledge by the time, it's the mathusalyze nanites, the ones that ping released back in the days.


oh gods, as im writing this, is this consistent with the timeline ? i'm not sure ?! if not, then it's plothole, coz without serious nanotech her brain couldn't have statis for that long (unless panzer meditation technique ? she got no arm or legs and her mouth keep tight...

need sleep

[TankTreads]

With the proper supply of nutrients, removal of beta amyloid plaque (alzheimers and whatnot), and some protective measures against oxidization? It could theoretically be prolonged as long as the supply of fats and amino acids lasts.
Would she have been ejected into the atmosphere with such things?

Mind you Desty Nova remarked that something unique was up with the STRUCTURE of her brain in hte first chapter of LO...

Why would a girl as young as Yoko was in the flashback have a cyborg body...?

Ahh, you bring up a couple interesting points. You see, I've played Martian Memory and read up on Alita's very creepy origin story translated from dialogue in the game. I'm not so sure if all the details are still canonical, given that the plot in Last Order has diverged from that of the game by a considerable degree. However, it goes like this:

*SPOILERS! DO NOT SCROLL DOWN UNLESS YOU WISH TO READ SENSITIVE PLOT DETAILS*

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Basically, Alita never had a human body to begin with. She's a clone, or something of the sort. To be more specific, early settlers on Mars discovered an indigenous strain of virus in Mars' soil that caused the undifferentiated cells of infected individuals to literally grow tumor-like fully-formed parasitic human heads all over their body. The only form of treatment for sufferers of this disease with any chance of success was prosthetic replacement of the affected tissue. Because of the threat this affliction posed to the general public, they needed to fast-track development of more advanced prosthetic limbs and organs, which eventually led to the creation of some of the earliest full-conversion cyborgs.

Well, guess what? One brilliant scientist got a funny idea to give one of those "heads" a cyborg body. You see, standard practice at the time was to dispose of affected tissue as medical waste. But this guy had some serious doubts about the ethical implications of all this. He believed they were effectively throwing away perfectly good, living human brains, and he decided to test his hypothesis. The patient was a member of the Martian royal family - a queen, to be precise. After performing the procedure, he recovered one of the excised brains and installed it in a cyborg body. The face was modeled on the queen's - a face she no longer had thanks to the disfiguring nature of the condition and the great surgical hurdles required to treat it.

The child - "Orphan", as he called her - appeared to learn and grow like a normal human being. His theory confirmed, he decided to present his research to the scientific community and petition various local politicians. He believed that these brains represented human individuals separate from their host, which meant that they deserved to be given the same human rights that any other individual would expect. They called him a loon and forced him out of the public eye and into seclusion.

Soon thereafter, deciding he could no longer safely care for this so-called "Orphan" due to the growing risk that she could be confiscated and disposed of by the authorities, he sent her to those who practiced the Armored Arts. You know the rest.

I'm thinking this scientist dude was the one who augmented Alita's brain with the regenerative nano-polymer that enabled it to survive re-entry and sitting in a scrap pile for a couple hundred years. While the possibility exists that this entire origin story has been retconned a bit in the intervening period, there are at the very least a number of hints that would seem to point towards the intervention of a character with a similar degree of medical genius. It's still too early to tell for sure, though.

[HumanRage]

this is hazardeous here

kishiro has some of his story in mind, wrote his manga, had to finish it but did a side story video game completing the manga.


now the manga has a sequel, which is said to be "the end of guunm as it was meant to be", so we are just basically following the author here... will he follow the video game story line ? coz it indeed fill most of the blanks, and the common characters and designs seems to indicate this is the case !

[litchi master]

Well I tend to agree with tanktreads, for me Yukito Kishiro is broadly following Gunnm Martian memories plot so I think these details are still canonical. Isidorios's theory which dates back to a while ago was quite interesting but I don't think it fits in the story very well. Whereas the jinmen seed virus ( that was the name of the virus if my memory is correct) is a better explanation storywise, as someone already phrase it, she was never human to start with.
however she has a brain, which we see several times in the first series, we may not trust the first image from the factory deckman, but when Alita is offered a chance to work for Tiphares as a tuned we are shown her body just before dismantling, moreover after her fight with GR 2 we see Chief Bigott watching her brain activity marveling her amazing recuperation ability. Before discarding it scornfully on the account that she is a cyborg(However in the the beginning of LO we we learn that this ability of hers stems from polymer resin that has permeated with the brain so that can harden instantly to protect it from shocks) and lastly in the first scene of LO when we learn that Nova has regenerated the brain of Alita with his nano machines. And oddly enough the only one we can trust is Nova, the only one with the ultimate free will he 's not bound by morals or customs. As a proof it was because of a whim of his that he exchanged Alita's Brian for a brainchip.
Now Nova is a Nano machine specialist, if Alita's Brain had had Mathuzalise he would definitely have noticed, though he may not have known what these particular nanomachines were for. Now I think the Mathuzalise is a false lead from Kishiro to deceive his readers, and also a trick to make it possible for Alita to meet with people from her past.

[litchi master]

as a reminder here is isidorios's theory that I am alluding to:

Alita/Gally has had cat-like personality attributes since the original series. Also, when her "Fighting spirit" was quelled by Desty Nova inside the computer dreamworld, it took refuge inside the dream-cat that was her namesake.

Honestly, I don't think Alita has EVER been a "real" human being. We've been shown that she's been in a machine body since a toddler (LO#1), and Nova discovered that her organic brain is in fact permeated with an unknown supernanotech polymer.

I suspect that she's a construct of Mechelzidek, an unknowing avatar of the "Robot God". Mechelzidek is either using her to influence certain events to it's satisfaction, or is exploring humanity through her, IMO.

I think that Mechelzidek is to some degree responsible for her amnesia, and is still supressing certain memories. I think that the original Yoko turned out badly (in Mechelzidek's opinion), and that the Supercomputer "rebooted" her memory to give her another chance at growing into a better person, only allowing her to re-merge when she was deemed strong enough.

I believe Desty Nova was correct when he called her brain an Unparalleled Karmatron Generator. I think it's function is patterned after Mechelzidek's own Quantum brain, and that it began to reach it's full function in the Imaginos Body. I believe her early symptoms of being out of sync were the first subconcious attempts to alter Quantum spacetime, and backfired. With the Imaginos 2.0 and the link to Mechelzidek, she's now able to properly bend reality in a limited way. What the Karate Master is percieving as a mental effect is an actual warping of probability.

[litchi master]

now I think that over the years Kishiro's story has undergone various changes, become more complex and more mature than it was at the time of the video game; the greatest change so far being Alita's brainchip that Ihad absolutely not seen coming.
but even the polymer resin had been explained by kishiro in his first ending, it was due to the zubringer a resin that enabled cyborgs to travel in space.

Now I am treading the dangerous path of hypothesis:
if kishiro has kept the jinmen seed idea, which I hope he did, it really fits well with his work so far:
1 it would explain why the brain has fused with resin because being made out of unspecified cells it is not exactly made like an average brain and would explain why it was able to assimilate foreign tissue.
2 this would explain her quest for humanity, if she was never human to start with: if she was just the result of an experiment an overgrown face shaped furuncle, the trauma would be even greater than when she discovered that nova had replaced her brain with a chip.
3 I think Alita will eventually be reunited with her brain before the end instead of fusing with the mutagen as in the original game.achieving such a feat will mean that she will have reached a level of awaremess comparable to m'badi's.
(I just had the idea amoment ago and I just had to tell it)

now this is the future and this thread is concerned with the past
I think a few details of the video game are no longer canonical,
first i think the scientist guy did didn't send yoko to grunthal but rather that he was killed in the conflict leaving yoko alone and stranded.
Second limeira's drastic change in design makes me hope that all connection between yoko and the former mars master have been severed, this fairy tale thing was totally silly and useless.

[Gallygun]

I just thought of something! You know how Nova said at the beginning of LO that the bio-brainchips in the AR series were the same as the ones in the Tipheres citizens? And how Xechs is called "somehow different" than the other AR series?

I was thinking about the people on mars who grow multiple heads all over their bodies. What if (if this is what Alita is) the AR series got their brainchips from the SAME collection of heads on one body?!

Just a thought I had last night! THis is all so exciting to see where LO might be going!!!

[TankTreads]

Hmm, it's not likely. There's too much of a gap there; over 200 years between Alita's stint on Earth and her supposed origin on Mars. Nothing from Martian Memory seemed to indicate that the good doctor ever recovered more than one such brain. While the possibility still exists that a few patients - or tissue excised from them - were moved off-world for the purposes of study, it wouldn't have been from the same individual.

I believe the bio-chips of the Alita Replicant-series either had some basic functions copied from the brains of normal citizens of Tiphares or that their initial state was simply programmed into them from stored data profiles. There is still a lot we don't know about those chips, but from what Bigott said, it's pretty obvious that they're programmed with Alita's combat data. How they compiled this data into a format usable by a bio-chip is unknown. Capturing sensory data from a cyborg and taking telemetry readings and footage from their engagements is one thing, but rebuilding and transcribing that data so that it comprises the basis of knowledge for a type of brain chip that is supposed to emulate human learning, understanding and general cognition is completely another. Because Alita's combat data is most likely not captured directly from her brain (if that were possible, why give her a TUNED body and send her into combat at all? They could have just brought her brain up the tubes and ripped that information out directly), that means the bio-chips can be configured to accept raw information rather than just a copy of somebody's memories. Unless, of course, they made the Replicants watch recordings and "learn" Alita's moves the hard way.

In any case, Alita's combat data would not be sufficient to create a useful android that operates on the same cognitive principles as the human brain. You would also have to give them an understanding of language and a few bits of common sense, like "don't put your hand in a wood chipper" and so forth. But from the combat data thing, it is reasonable to assume that they don't really even need to copy neural patterns from a living subject; they can store basic memories as binary or even quantum data and then plug those values into a new bio-chip somehow. But then again, perhaps not. There simply isn't enough information on how the Replicants were "taught" in the first place.

[Isidorios]

Hey it's me. Been lurkin' but not posting much, but since one of my theories was being discussed...

I'm not going to put much stock into the idea that Alita's origin is tied to the Jinmen Seed. He's already revised her from being an unimportant castaway from a Martian terror-group to a key person responsible for the state of the Solar System's conflict.
I just don't see her as being some sort of head-wart. Sounds like one of those ideas you concoct early in your writing career, and later abandon. Then again, I did not see the gigantic nano lifeform with the atomic penis coming (npi) either.

Sechs and the rest of the A series have very different personalities from Alita, and show no emotional connection to people from her past. I'd agree with Tanktreads that they are probably copies of Tiphareans, most likely the GIB operators who were monitoring them. Did you notice that they were all female? Coincedence? Make a personality-copy of the GIB operator, download all the data from Alita's battles into them, and you'd probably end up with something very like the AR series.
The Tiphareans didn't really strike me as technologically sophisticated enough to create brand-new sentient personalities, but they were certainly experienced in Brain-chip dubbing.

Of course, theres always the chance that the original Alita's quantum brainwaves reverberated into the past, imprinted themselves on a prototype cyberbrain, and that Alita is simply the preincarnation of Ido's dead cat.
>

[TankTreads]

I'm not going to put much stock into the idea that Alita's origin is tied to the Jinmen Seed. He's already revised her from being an unimportant castaway from a Martian terror-group to a key person responsible for the state of the Solar System's conflict.
I just don't see her as being some sort of head-wart. Sounds like one of those ideas you concoct early in your writing career, and later abandon. Then again, I did not see the gigantic nano lifeform with the atomic penis coming (npi) either.

Of course. I've also taken into account the possibility that her origins have been retconned completely, considering everything else that's different from Martian Memory (a whole lot, actually). I thought the whole Jinmen (literally "Face People") thing was kinda corny at first, but I warmed up to the idea later on. Actually, I hope he keeps it in. Not only is it one of the more "original" origin stories I've heard, it also carries with it no small amount of grief for those who would inadvertently uncover it.

If anything, the look on Alita's face would be priceless.

[litchi master]

You are a sadist!!!! lol
but I agree with you it would be a pity for kishiro to have dropped such an original idea. In the beginning, I was truly shocked when I read it I really couldn't accept it, and like you the idea grew on me. it just felt like it was right. the only thing I found unnatural is the relationship with the first mars master which was too farfetched and fairy tale like, but hopefully Kishiro has given up the idea as Limeira's change in design tends to prove.
And when you think about it, the storyline has not changed so much, it just evolved gaining in maturity and in complexity.
The jinmen seed explains everything it even accounts for the peculiarity of Alita's brain, itexplains why it has a different structure and was able to fuse with polymer resin and the cyborg body at so early an age. it leaves no blank.
But maybe kishiro has found something even more interesting over the years, who knows.
Anyway, your theory is really interesting isidorios, but the fact that Alita happens to meet people who knew her from before (tzykrow, Erica) tends to contradict it.

[kvhokuto]

Sechs and the rest of the A series have very different personalities from Alita
>

So do you think it's just co-incidence that two of the GR series abandoned violence for a time to become singers, and that another is driven by the desire to become stronger?

[Isidorios]

So do you think it's just co-incidence that two of the GR series abandoned violence for a time to become singers, and that another is driven by the desire to become stronger?

Those are both really common desires. Especially in Manga. I stand by assessment that the sychophantic bunny girls and the "transgender" Sechs have essentially nothing in common with Alita personality-wise. And Sech's path to strength is quite different to Alita's, judging by their inner dialogue.
It's a martial-arts Manga. Practically EVERYONE is "driven by the desire to become stronger". And all of the AR series were built to mimic Alita's talents, to one degree or another. Personality is another thing entirely.

I was joking about Alita actually being Ido's dead cat, BTW. But given that in this universe, minds project quantum karmic waves that resonate in both the future AND the past (the Pendragon aspect of Mechelzidek alludes to this, and it would know), it's not impossible that Ido's cat's soul "reincarnated" itself somehow into a cybermind in the past. I'm not being serious, but it's not an impossibility in Kishiro's story.

I still DO think that the Quantum Supercomputer is responsible for her existence though.

[MrFaber]

Memories of Mars is a Videogame from before Last Order was even started to be drawn. It was out of some Kyshiro's unpublished ideas for the story after the 1st 8 volumes of Gunnm, which have never been developed due to sudden closure of Gunnm pubblication. The story in BALO completely cast outside Memories of Mars and it's plod shouldn't be taken in consideration for the canon story. Alita is just a 230-something old matusalized martian woman, whom can, potentially, live forever, due to matuzalization process. She must have been less then 20 when matusalized, because she looks like a teenager when Ido finds her remanins, then the whole Gunnm plot lasts 16 years, if i recall correctly. So = 200 years of hybernation + let's say 16 years of naturale groth + 17 years of story, so far, should make it 232-234. Nice age.

Abour 6, 11 and 12, we should say that the Tuned where not, actualy, duplicates of any Alita's brainchip. They where more like syntetich personalities build by MIB computers on the base of Alita's recorded experiences as a Tuned. I don't think they share any of her memories. Just a bunch of infos about punzer knust and a flat basic personality which has been developed in the survived three due to their months of independent life after tuned project was halted.

[moooV]

*SPOILERS! DO NOT SCROLL DOWN UNLESS YOU WISH TO READ SENSITIVE PLOT DETAILS*
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*A LOT OF TEXT HERE*

This version was really shocking for me. This is at least quite original and unexpected, but too extreme IMO. Yes, it's a unique starting point, which explains most of the aspects, but still it's over the edge, going far beyond all speculations, even the craziest ones.

I just don't like it - it breaks the purity of the story: it's a quite high-level thing, which uses to tear templates while observing decencies, there is no filth in it. And, suddenly, the story origin becomes filthy. This isn't right.

I DO beleive that YK has came up with a better idea over the past years. This idea is generally great and unique, but this is not the right case for it, IMO.

[Megan_Gale]

Spoilers, spoilers, etc etc etc
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Yeah, I gotta say I'm not too wild about it, if only because it means that Alita was NEVER a normal person who transcended the limits placed on each person at birth, brings in all this messianic stuff that always irks me in fantasy. It's a little like the Star Wars Midi-Chlorian count, y'know? I hate seeing a person work hard, overcome obstacles, face daunting challenges and overcome them with the right spirit and determination, develop skills, so on..... aaaaand then it turns out they were just LIABLE TO DO IT ALL ALONG.
Granted it's not the same thing exactly in this situation, but it's still a riff on the same theme when the freak turns out to be the most capable person of all. Like Superman from Krypton, or the X-Men being mutants. Blah. And I can kind of see the story going in this direction too, what with all of that banter during the Caerula fight about destiny and the judgment of her swords, et cetera. And the part with the image of Arthur talking to the robots in Robo-Asyl; "one who is destined to return to the earth" or whatever the line was... argh.
But it's a new day, isn't it?
A new storyline entirely, a whole new slew of new characters, all kinds of complicating factors with the lack of an actual brain now (does this make her MORE HUMAN, in an age where flesh and blood folks are trading in their brains for chips arbitrarily like Zekka did?) all this could go in any direction. I'm not gonna stop reading.
"This Titanic has sailed too far to turn around now!"

[TankTreads]

Well, if you want to get technical about it, the current Alita contains none of her "original" organic material. If she ever was born a freak, she shouldn't have to worry about it now. She's already transcended that.

[Gallygun]

I think she was the multi-headed thing. Why? Look at earth in VIlma's time; a bunch of mutants (like vampires) started poping up. Look at Mercurius and Anomoly; same super freaky stuff happenning (to a degree).

Just a thought.

[zer0nix]

the jinmen seed sounds like the result of a nanotech virus, with the big 'jinmen' -the 'human faced' rock formation on mars, 'jinmen' being japanese for 'human face'- being a marker as to its location... perhaps alita is the result of some tiphares scientist's experiments -probably too early to be dr. vares, but i doubt we've heard the last of him. it just sounds like the kind of ridiculous thing dr. nova would do.

unfortunately, it doesn't seem like the game specifies when the outbreaks first appeared, so we have no idea of when the virus originates.

Spoiler:

based on her described physical similarity, it seems like alita is a clone of the first martian queen, with the jinmen seed being some sort of nanotech that causes the spontaenous emergence of parasitic clone heads all over the body.

Spoiler:

with that said, i have major problems with the martian memories story. mainly, that the reason for the martian queen's animus is never fully explained -unless you accept the horse-shit reason that she is just an evil bitch who is throwing an epic tantrum because she lost her beautiful body.

-then again, alita and the rest of the tuned have demonstrated a capacity to be blindly foolhardy, with sechs' murder of the tuned demonstrating a similar lack of morals when faced with an emotional directive.

regarding the vampires, i presume those were just people with great mental strength who were fed upon by victor byron, who just happened to have personalities that could be tolerated for his 'mission.' byron's origin is never explained beyond being a defeated, dark ages templar, himself infected by something else.